The all things technical thread.

Discussion in 'British Boxing Forum' started by slip&counter, Feb 5, 2012.


  1. almsn

    almsn Guest

    Good posts man :good:good
     
  2. Jdsm

    Jdsm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    From the 'philly shell' defense I avoid doing this for the jab. I try to just bend my legs to slip the shot, or parry with my right glove, becuase if you turn the shoulder, it's a lot harder to roll and counter the right hand follow up.
     
  3. norfolkinchance

    norfolkinchance Active Member Full Member

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    good point! will have an experiment next time im in the gym. watching toney he does seem to dip more but i seem to rotsate more. will have a try and see what happens. thanks :happy

    something i posted in another thread

    two orthodoix fighters. get in close until my left shoulder is touching there chest area. try and throw something with the left to body to get them leaning forward. or just push with shoulder so they push back. then pull back my left shoulder which leaves a nice slot to whip the right uppercut thriugh the guard. works a treat.

    the more sideways you are the easier it seems to be to disguise. throw plenty left hooks to distract and not thinking of right hand then boom!!!!
     
  4. Jdsm

    Jdsm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The good thing about the style is that you can also afford lean back slightly to make guys overcommit and then slip, roll and counter punches. That's why I like to pratice it so much in the gym, if you understand WHY you're doing it, it is very effective :good

    The angles that you can present without having to expend a great deal of energy with this style is amazing.
     
  5. slip&counter

    slip&counter Gimme some X's and O's Full Member

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    Feinting.

    Feinting is much an important aspect of creating opportunities for your offense. The aim is to deceive the opponent and make him think you're throwing something somewhere and then you throw it somewhere else. Or the part of him that opens up. You can make a fighter do things he doesn't wanna do just by feinting. It's boxings art of deception. It can be so effective and pretty much anyone will fall for a good feint. It keeps the opponent guessing and stops him from predicting your attack or figuring out your punching pattern. You can control what points your opponents adjusts his guard or what movements he makes by feinting certain punches. The most effective and my favourite feint is throwing a couple of jabs to the body, then feinting the next time which than brings your opponents hands down as he attempts to block the body shot leaving his himself open up top. you can manoeuvre his guard positioning by feinting. The more openings you can make for you power punches the better and feinting is a major tool to do that. It's a dying art though, feinting. You don't see too many fighters doing it properly as a result they're more predictable. Even if they do it it's too exaggerated and not effective feinting.

    I recently watched Eddie Perkins fighting Ryu Sorimachi (i can't find the vid now i don't know if someone can post it here) and he gave a masterpiece on feinting.
     
  6. slip&counter

    slip&counter Gimme some X's and O's Full Member

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    It'd be great if you could do a full breakdown of the phily shell, the pros and cons and how to fight out of it, mate. :good
     
  7. Jdsm

    Jdsm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I'll try my best, although I know I'll miss something ridiculously obvious out and it may not be too well-written :lol::good
     
  8. slip&counter

    slip&counter Gimme some X's and O's Full Member

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    I'm sure it'll be good.
     
  9. pathmanc1986

    pathmanc1986 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Feinting has to be educated or with purpose though. theres a lot of guys who seem to twitch and act like they are being electricuted, out of both their range and the opponents and it adds nothing to their game. Groves is guilty of this, particularly in the anderson fight. it wastes energy without providing any benefit.

    the best feints are fake feints - or feints of a punch you have been delivering, fake that punch that you have been landing and deliver something in response to it.

    take this andy lee KO ( one we have all seen replayed 100s of times i know) - show somone a punch - feint it - set something up off it


    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bPJQcDyu0[/ame]
     
  10. slip&counter

    slip&counter Gimme some X's and O's Full Member

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    Southpaws just look so much more aesthetically pleasing with almost every shot. The angle for them to slide out just looks better doesn't it and more smooth. It seems like the orthodox fighter has to use his feet more to get out for that shot.

    I loved trying to immitate southpaws when i was a kid.
     
  11. SkillspayBills

    SkillspayBills Mandanda Running E-Pen Full Member

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    Yep that's it in a nutshell mate, Part of my boxing 'apprenticeship' as a child i told my father when moving to another gym 'i'm going southpaw' i felt so much better fighting as a lefty.

    My only problem and i dunno how this is for most lefty's at AM level but sadly many trainers don't like it, don't know how to work pads for a southpaw and often try change fighters around to orthodox.
     
  12. slip&counter

    slip&counter Gimme some X's and O's Full Member

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    It's the same everywhere. They think there's something wrong with being a southpaw. For whatever reason. I wasn't having non of it and turned myself into one, i was so MUCH more comfortable especially in the offensive department. What i found, ironically enough. And i don't know if anyone else has had this experience is that i was generally better at trying to avoid punches in the orthodox stance but the southpaw stance was easier in releasing punches and getting off more. I don't know why that was. Maybe trying to immitate and 'sit on the toilet' like Pernell Whitaker, not doing it properly and walking into punches had something to do with it. :lol:
     
  13. Jdsm

    Jdsm Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The 'philly shell' is quite a complex style with so many subtleties and variations that it's very hard to break down. It is often refered to as the 'shoulder roll defense' because the shoulder roll is one of the defensive skills that is incorporated by most boxers that use this style.

    Since most of the interest in this style is from a defensive stand point, I will start with the defensive benefits of using the philly shell. The first defensive skill I'll talk about is the shoulder roll. The shoulder roll is very effective for defending against the orthodox right hand, specifically the straight right. Not only does it ensure that the chin is well protected from the shot, but if executed effectively, it sets up clean counterpunching opportunities.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAC6o9420fc[/ame]

    3:10 (3:17 for slow motion) shows perfect execution of the shoulder roll by Mayweather. Not only does he protect his chin and deflect the shot away with the shoulder, he comes back with a nice short shot of his own, which Mosley is wide open for. With the shoulder roll, the orthodox fighter will turn his shoulders clockwise as the punch is anticipated and as this is done, it also takes the right hand out of the opponent's sight, which makes it a lot harder for them to defend against a counter that they've already been opened up for.

    Further examples of the shoulder roll - counter right hand being executed:

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDrFQtbM2rc[/ame]

    Another defensive benefit of the philly shell is that when a fighter is backed up against the ropes, because of the hand position, they don't restrict their own vision and this allows them to parry, slip, roll and counter against punches.

    A few examples of this:

    8:25
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl50iVr25R8[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQjBDsHOpv4[/ame]

    Due to the hands are held in the philly shell, so many defensive moves can be executed with minimal effort and energy expendature.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo[/ame]

    At around 1:45 Floyd Mayweather demonstrates how with very, very small movements shots can be blocked and present huge counter opportunities.

    Since there is so much involved in this style, I'll make another post with the offensive benefits and if anybody wants me to try and explain further any defensive specifics, just ask. I'm not great at writing out long break downs :lol:
     
  14. brown bomber

    brown bomber 2010 Poster of the Year Full Member

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    Awesome post JDSM but your missing one really important little thing- and I think its actually the single most important part of that 'style' of boxing. I hate calling it the 'philly shell' because as far as I'm aware its computer game terminology- please someone prove me wrong so I don't feel a twat typing it.

    Look where the fighters body weight is generally proportioned. He sits over the back leg (unless he chooses otherwise). By doing this he allows himself a number of functional advantages....

    1. His opponent has to reach to hit him- if you reach your off balance. So whilst he is on balance and his opponent is off balance he has the advantage.

    2. Movement originates in the legs- specifically the back leg. The lead leg supports the movement- but the inital movement tends to be initiated by movement from the back leg. Think George Groves.....

    3. More leverage for the right hand. You load the back leg to transfer the weight for the right hand. Thus if your weight is sat there all the time you have it available to you at all times.

    4. Multi directional movement is easier. If your weight sits on the back foot then you can quickly change the direction your moving in faster as there is no weight to shift.

    5. Keeping the weight on the back foot allows you a great base from where to throw all your shots. You should not be shifting your weight around for each individual punch, you should have a base from where you can execute any move, at any time. For example if your weight is pitched forward you can no longer deliver a good cross, you can no longer roll and slip as effectively. etc etc.....

    Its no coincidence that all the top fighters you name here as stylist proportion themselves in this manner.... compare this

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnUU3SbywZU[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60GuoYpmbJo[/ame]

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8INHy35zWg&feature=related[/ame]
     
  15. DrMo

    DrMo Team GB Full Member

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    ^ Good post jdsm :good

    Could you talk a little about the footwork?

    Do most guys who use the shell adopt a slightly wider stance than normal?