Ken Norton verus Joe Louis' opposition...

:d

 

-No, he would do better. And most likely KO Moorer like Tua did and Coooper almost did. That doesn't make the run down of Cooper's credientials any less meaningful.

-Again, he had that "hell schedule" becaues he was a gatekeeper.

-Ok, he really didn't give Holyfield fits. He was dominated the majority of the fight, even before and after the "knockdown"

 

Your all over the place here.

-Again, I feel Galento falls in nicely with the tough limited contenders like Mercers and Tuas and its important to note that I was responding to Seamus when I made that statement. You zeroed in on Mercer and said no way Galento gives Lewis fits. So? Lots of really excellent fighters like Holyfield couldn't give Lewis fits like Mercer did. Again, a single individual match up is not the point of my broad generalization regarding these fighters as a whole.

-Revisit the context of those knocks against Cooper. You Championed Cooper as someone who would knock the snot out of Galento, and can only back it up by blowing up his "achievements" and making his gate keeper schedule out to be something that it is not. Do you really think the shaky Cooper is going to outslug the durable Galento?


My original post to YOU:

Cooper rocked Holyfield and made him grab a rope. Galento decked Louis. Fair enough trade.

As far H2H Cooper vs. Galento. It would be a brawl of course. Both men could hit, but my money would be on the fighter would take as much as he dished out.

Cooper's only good wins Joe Hipp and when Norris twisted his knee. Cooper was a career gate keeper, Galento was a real contender for a few years.

 

Are we talking about the same versions of Moorer? Because Moorer lost to those guys roughly 10 years apart, with Tua beating the past prime version, so frankly I don't think duplicating Tua's performance would mean all that much... In any case, I think its speculative that Galento would stop a guy who was KO'd really only once in his prime and to a guy who was in a higher class of puncher than Galento, and one who had take an utter **** beating before the opportunity finally presented itself.

It's not so much the schedule that I am interested in so much as what he actually DID with it. Again, I think there was a brief period where he was better than just a mere gatekeeper, and I've explained that already, but if you want to continue to throw the term out there, then suit yourself.

I'll give you that one.... But he definitely gave fits to the other two guys I mentioned while also becomming the first to do what he did to Holyfield. I'd say he was an opponent to be taken seriously.

 

-Doesn't matter. Tua or Galento types would have always had his number. Moorer was prone to brawling and always had questionable durability. If Cooper was more durable and a better finisher at the elite level he would have had Moorer's number too.

-Yes, Cooper is an opponent to be took seriously. Though Holyfield beat him rather easily without taking him too seriously. He could be dangerous as most big punchers are, but how exactly is he going to knock the snot out of a more durable fighter who can match his power? Moorer outlasted him and he was never known for his toughness.

 

not really.. Just addressing your points head on and feel that I've done a good job.

Mercer perhaps... Tua was in a higher class.

Fair enough.

I don't feel that I was "blowing up his acheivements" but rather highliting prudent points that you have systematically swept under the carpet by making the blanket statement that his WHOLE career was characterized as being a gatekeeper. I agree that he was a gatekeeper for MOST of his career, and at times even worse, especially as his career deteriorated.. But I also think its possible for some fighters to step out of their usual mold, even if its for just briefly... From 1990-1992, I believe there was a fashion where he well may have been a contender, even if it was just of the fringe variety.

Get outta here already.. Do you really think that there was that WIDE of a gap between their staying powers to classify one as being "shaky" while labeling the other as "durable"? Both men were stopped by the best punchers they ever faced.. Weather one faced "better" punchers than the other is debatable, but neither man had Chuvalo's jaw nor Bobbick's glass chin.. Joe Louis may have been the best puncher out of the group that either man faced, but given that Galento was beaten in only four rounds I don't think it gives him a leg up..

Yes. It was a rope that prevented Holyfield from going down, but down he surely would have gone had it not been for the convenient location of the incident. Galento decked Louis in the center of the ring where there was no rope to grab, and Louis was up in an instant, not even lasting more than a second.. Frankly after watching the films of both fights again, I think Cooper had Holyfield more hurt, whereas Louis didn't even seem to be rattled.

I'll accept that as a fair opinion, though I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of the proportionate abilities of each man to take what one dishes out, or lack there of... personally I think they're both fairly close.

Both were contenders in their primes when he beat them, and incidentally cooper did beat a few other decent men, including undefeated Willie Dewitt when he was a hot prospect, but no need to break down both resumes in an effort to compare each and every fighter both guys ever faced.. This coversation has gotten long enough as it is... Anyway, as for Norris twisting his knee, that's true, but it was also a fight that Cooper was already ahead on points for, and norris was not the type to front a come from behind win.. A similar argument could be made for Nova who had lost partial eye site late in the fight with Galento as a result of repeated thumbing.

Already covered my position on the gatekeeper thing.. Don't know exactly how long Galento was ranked nor how highly he was revered over any length of time, but I do feel that if the right version of Cooper stepped in the ring with him, he could have emerged victorious..

 

The obvious problem with that ascertion is that Galento was not in Tua's class, and the better of those two fought Moorer when he was basically finished..

Well he was only stopped 3 times in nearly 60 fights.. One time coming in his prime against an all time great puncher who had to take a hell of a beating before the chance finally came up.... Another was a corner retirement against another all time great.... And the last was when he was thoroughly washed up against a man who was superior to Galento.... he also rose off the canvas to beat a hard punching Cooper, got up to win against Holy ( albeit Evander was in bad form that night, ) and took some big shots from aged but still dangerous smith.... How many times was Galento stopped in his career?

Perhaps, but his durability wasn't that bad... It was mostly big punchers and top raters who stopped him inside the distance when he was prime, and in most instances, he took a **** load of punishment before it happened... Watch the Mercer fight and look at some of the shots he took for 12 rounds while also returning plenty of fire of his own.. If you havent seen the Moorer fight, then i highly suggest you watch that one as well.

I would not call that an easy fight, and frankly I haven't heard anyone else who ever referred to it as such either. At one point, one of the men doing commentary on that bout said that he couldn't believe that Holyfield wasn't just outboxing cooper rather than trading with him.

Again the comparison of who hit harder and who was more durable between Galento and Coope is rather inconclusive in my opinion.

 

Regarding Cooper and Galento..I can't believe there is any questoin as to who was more durable...Magoo, you made two very long posts..and I still can't see any reasoning behind this..

Cooper was stopped 15 times 61 fights. He failed to answer the bell many times but has been dropped over 10, and stopped cold several times.

Tony Galento hsa been stopped 6 times in over 100 fights. He was only knocked down once by a Joe Louis combination. He was never stopped cold, quitting on his stool against he Baer brothers and stopped on cuts a few times early in his career. He might very well be one of the more durable fighters in history and has enjoyed that reputation.

What's next Moorer was as durable as Chuvalo? I mean they both lost to the best punchers they faced and all...

 

Really, Magoo you are smart poster..I honestly can't beleive what I'm reading here.

Galento belongs up there with Tua, McCall, Chuvalo, Vitali, and Marciano as far as being absurdly durable heavyweights. Over 100 fights, including some of the best punchers of his era while not always being the best shape...he was only dropped once by a combination that would have probably left your average tough hw on a stretcher. Galento got up and was stopped on his feet. He could get under punches but he wasn't a defensive wizard either, he usually ate leather. The man was a tank!


If you want to call to question his durabilty..don't compare him with Bert Cooper...geez, man.

 

Okay,

I suppose we can cut this off here... Great debate though.. :good I enjoyed going back and forth on some of the good points that you brought up..... For my next argument I will start a thread entitled " Tony Galento vs the almighty Chuck wepner."

 

Wepner wins hands down, he knocked down Ali you know and has 4 ESPN documentaries on the way this year alone, "Chuck Wepner: Better than Frazier" "White Hope or Too Dope? The Chuck Wepner Story" "15 with Chuck: Ali's Greatest Challenge" "Chuck Norris on Chuck Wepner: How I Learned to Be a Man"

 

You've heard me say this before, and since I can't find the link of a former thread to cut and paste I'll do my best to my recollection....

Here goes,

" of all the wonders of the world, few are as magnificent as the almighty Chuck wepner... The Bayanne Bleeder earned his nickname from the blood he drew from countless numbers of opponents... This was the man who retired Sonny Liston, Schooled a young Foreman, thrashed Ernie Terrell and left Muhammad Ali on ***** street.. He inspired one of the greatest cult films of all time in Rocky, and tought every mob thug they know about collections... Hale the almighty chuck wepner.."