Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

that is my main point, thank you for putting it so eloquently. I think its odd in this day and age that the black fighter is depicted as the negative monster contrasted against a heroic, supercapable white guy.

 

I am not really sold on Liston when challenged against a man that has no fear comes to win and is hungry and can inflict pain. When I was a kid Liston had the look but he did lose to a 180lb Marty Marshall and quit 2X vs Ali and later on a hungry Leotis Martin took his best and knocked him out cold. A lot of people say Liston was old and because Leotis never really did anything exceptional up to that point but....the key here is Leotis got off the floor and was not in awe of Sonny he got off the floor and went back at Sonny. I think a bully when they get in the ring with someone who has heart and power somehow mentally caves...lets face it that was Sonny's biggest kink in his Armour. I am not saying that Liston would not have his moments of success but against a great fighter with heart,power and a lack of fear I think as his history suggests he would fold.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlTAZ-iTLuE[/ame]

 

I wouldn't judge liston on the loss to marshall nor leotis.

History shows that from 59-64 he was a force to be reckoned with which is why he had the hw (paper) champ running scared both outside and inside the ring.

 

The "bully" theory has already been proven wrong before, Folley, Williams, Machen, and Whitehurst fought back and Liston beat them all. Besides, I think he was green vs Marshall, (he knocked out Marshall in the rematches) past it vs Ali, and even more past it vs Martin. I would never rank Liston based on those fights.

 

Some can argue that it takes a special fighter to psyche out another great fighter to the extent the victim becomes a lesser fighter on the night. However, to my mind if the man is not great when he is beaten then a great fighter has not been beat on the night. If patterson did not "come to fight" what does it mean? Liston himself did not "come to fight" against Ali in Maine and that Ali win means nothing. How can it mean something for Liston to psyched out patterson but nothing when Ali psyched out Liston? There is a double standard going on here.

 

Some quotes taken from Angelo Dundee’s first book “I only talk winning”


page 189.


“Let me tell you, I thought cassius could do it. The public had been mesmerized by Listons two wins against Patterson. So he Kod Patterson in the first round both times. What did that mean?
Cassius was big and strong, weighing 210, could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn’t worried. Let liston worry. I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”

 

Liston lost a decision to a far more experienced fighter in his eight pro fight and then to the greatest heavyweight of all time at the age of at least 34 plus coming off two years of very limited activity and then lost to Martin at close to forty and this is your case for building up Marciano over him ? YOu avoid the fact that Liston fought better fighters in their physical prime or that Sonny was a much bigger man or that Marciano's style was made for Liston ... despite your hero worship I can say with a fair degree of certainty that if the match were talking place today you would not put a cent on Rocky , fantasy hero worship aside...

 

Liston was not a bully, he was a great fighter. All fighters look fantastic winning one sided fights. Liston looked less than fantastical when in fights that were less than one sided. still great, just not fantastical.

 

when have I EVER said the ali win means nothing?

Liston psyching out patterson and subsequently obliterating him proving correct everyone's assumption he was the best hw is so blatantly a great achievement I don't need to go any further.

Ali beating Liston up for 8 rounds (1 of them whilst near blind) is obviously a tremendous victory also. Infact I'd favour Ali to beat Liston in a fantasy match (Ali from 67 v Liston from 62).

One of your problems as a poster is you make quite a lot of generalisations and apply them to an individual case. Like here you have replied to me and accused me of double standards because of some general argument you have, but ti doesn't apply in the individual argument.

If Ali is so good on the night that Liston wants out, it's a great victory. If Ali was so good defensively that Liston genuinely threw his shoulder out.... guess what? It's still a great victory.

If you are of the belief that Liston threw the fight for money, I'd ask for proof.

Mentally throwing a fight is just as much a victory for the victor as any other.

 

without the mind there is no body

 

Don't be so sure about what I would be sure of or who I would bet on I made several excellent bets in my life...You are a hero to anyone to anyone who is not white, 10 of your last posts were about race and you never back up your outlandish statements like "there were at least 10 black contenders that Benny Leonard avoided" but you wear rose colored glasses for Holmes and his avoidance of top contenders and co-champs.

I am a big believer of intestinal fortitude and how a test of it can bring out the best and worst of a fighter. The big puncher of the group you mentioned was Williams and I do not think he was an elite puncher. Liston flat out quit 2x in fights and Patterson was like a deer in the headlights...Machen was KO'd in 1 by Ingo went the distance with Sonny and Burt Whitehurst took Sonny the distance 2x vs Sonny but was KO'd by Archie Moore 2 X in the same time frame...some guys were not scared of Sonny and it was a different fight for him....I happen to like Sonny and had some close friends that new him but he quit in a few fights when things did not go the way he wanted...and that is just a fact

 

yes I am generalising about the established opinion that the patterson one round wins are considered great where as the first round KO Ali scored is not widely accepted as a great win. It is my view that patterson and liston were equaly poor in those defeats.

it was in reply to a subject you touched on rather than you directly:good.