Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Was it the Mob? I have heard many story's but none of them are proven to be facts. Was the first fight a shoulder injury? Was the 2nd fight the anchor punch that Ali never threw again with as much force or did Liston quit? Does anyone really know the reason why he quit ? The only fact is that he did quit.

As far as quality opponents there were a few but none I would rate as serious punchers Williams overrated and Machen and Foley were boxers...Patterson was a Champion but Floyd was totally spooked and try as he may beaten mentally, both times not to mention the most dropped Champion and previously KO'd by INGO

 

well, Pete Radermaker in his 1st pro fight dropped Floyd and so did so many other heavyweight, in fact he was dropped in so many of his top fights and defenses that I lose count and he was KO'd by INGo

Now as far as experts calling Williams a great puncher it goes to show you why so many of them no nothing. Bob Satterfield (who was supposed to have a glass jaw) fought the 31-1 Big Cat and stopped him in 3, also Keene Simmons who was KO'd in 8 by Marciano went the distance with Williams 2 years later and Simmons said Marciano hit much harder....I don't think Williams showed the true power when he moved up in class, although I would not classify him as a weak puncher I would not put him in the elite or near.

 

Personally I rank Marciano ahead as a big fan of both guys. Rockys number three on my list Liston usually hovers a little around the top 5.

If head to head is a major criterion Liston could be ranked higher though other than that his resume doesn't stand up to Marcianos. Walcott, Charles, Layne, Moore, Louis etc and the old 49-0.

awesome thread btw looking forward to reading more of it.

 

Liston said Williams was a huge puncher ...

Interestingly , Louis thought Satterfield was a bigger puncher than Liston , Marciano or Williams ...

 

Whoa there, cowboy.

Williams was shredded. He obviously hit harder than Marciano.

 

Well if I am pretty much alone let me tell you what I think supports my opinion and then maybe you can tell me the victory over what top contender supports yours

The 31-1 Big Cat fought the "Glass Jaw" Bob Satterfield and was KO'd in 3

He was KO'd 2X by Liston

But lets look at some of his wins and who went the distance with him

Keene Simmons (who Marciano KO'd in 8)
Frankie Daniels went the distance with him 3X but in the same time period was KO'd by George Chuvalo, Santo Amonti and Sonny Liston in 1

He went the distance with Billy Daniels who was Ko'd by Karl Mildenburger and Oscar Bonavena in 1 ( in the same time frame)

Big Cat went the distance with Howie Turner,Wayne Bethea,

He went the distance with the much KO'd Tommy Fields, he went the distance with Sonny Moore (who was Ko'd in 1 by Franco DePiccoli in last fight)

He could not KO Robert Davala (who was Ko'd by Jimmy Ellis and Joe Bugner and Jose Louis Garcia

He went the distance Mel Turnbow ( who was Ko'd by Buster Mathis,Hubert Hilton, and James Beatie in the same time frame

Big Cat also went the distance with Charlie Polite who was KO'd by light heavyweight Bob Foster, Jack O'Halloran and Joe Bugner

He went full ten with Eddie Machen in a draw

He did however stop Ernie Terrell but lost a decision in the rematch.

So if I am alone sorry to say but I judge punchers by who they KO'd not by the fighters that beat him. I have an open mind maybe you can tell me the victory over what top contender supports your opinion that he is in the elite list of all time punchers.

 

You can be a biggest puncher of all time but being able to land big punches on elite fighters is what cuts the mustard. williams was a big exciting heavyweight, he just was not ever a world beater.

 

On paper the three 1round wins look equaly great. on film the losers look equaly poor. the winners did not have to try very hard.

 

The difference is only in the losers. Patterson looked like he was obliterated. Liston looks like he quit.

Both liston and ali deserve huge credit for these victories. One beat his man physically whilst the other beat his man mentally.

Choklab if you want to believe that liston was so enormously frightening that he had the paper champ quaking in his boots two fights in a row to a degree that floyd was rendered into a mere shell of himself, than quite frankly you hold sonny in a higher regard than I do.

You're talking about a professional prize fighter, one who was only ever bettered by liston and ali despite being very undersized for the division he fought in.

So if you want to believe that liston was able to mentally nullify such a great fighter before stepping foot in the ring, then I have no choice but to label you a liston nuthugger.

 

Now that would be a label! I do like Liston, but that would be geeting carried away. jokes aside, I dont think patterson was frightened I subscribe more to angelo dundee's maxim about being too tense to perform corectly.


"I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”

 

Then you and dundee hold liston in a higher regard than I do.