Is Whitaker in your Top 10 All time Fighters?

Just accept these things are subjective and people have their own criteria.

 

Just take someone like Fullmer for example:

Robinson = Chavez
Basilio = Nelson
Tiger = De la Hoya
Turner = McGirt
Fernandez = Mayweather
Jones = Pendleton
Webb = Haugen
Pender = Vasquez
Castellani = Ramirez
Flanagan = Paez
Humez = Brazier
Vejar = Pineda
Paret = Hurtado
Mueller = Nazario
Rivers = Rivera


Beyond that, Fullmer has second wins against the likes of Robinson & Basilio, together with a draw with Joey Giardello.

Whitaker has what? Wins against Jake Rodriguez, Gary Jacobs and Anthony Jones?

Many guys have better resumes than Whitaker. Sure, in terms of domination, the number drops dramatically. But I don't think anyone is arguing on that front.

 

Pp, I know this is off topic, but who do you have as your top two at fw if it isn't pep and saddler?

I know you think very highly of marquez and I had him beating pac at fw and infact beating everyone he fought at fw but surely it isn't him who breaks your top two?

 

Some unknown mexican guy, i guess - who might that be?:think

 

I think they all started ducking each other around 1996 -1997 when a certain golden boy came on the welterweight radar. they all didnt want to risk losing out on mega money fight with oscar

 

The long and short of it is that had pea managed to beat tito and quartey instead of jacobs and jones his legacy absolutely increases by a significant margin which would have rendered this whole discussion moot.

Alternatively had he stayed drug free I think he could have beaten quartey in 98 and tito in 99 forcing a rematch with oscar which he may or may not have won at that point in their respective careers.

So even ignoring the lack of unification during their best ww years, it's hard to ignore the affect the drugs had in his post 96 career and whilst that is by no means a criticism, it certainly denied him the big fights as well as the chances of winning them realistically.

 

Tell me the difference between resume and achievement.

 

Resume, for me, is just a list of who you beat (in your career) and who beat you (in your prime).

Achievement, for me, is being number 1 in the world, how many defences you make, jumping up in weight, cleaning out an era etc.

I judge skillset on a man's best night. So I watch them at their peak and make a judgement of what they're capable of.

So with the example at hand. His resume is wins nelson, ramirez... Losses against noone. His achievements are ruling lw, unifying the three belts, jumping up and beating the number 1 ww, defending against the best lww twice, beating the best lmw in the world. His peak performance is hard to nail down because he looked awesome throughout his career but you could point to him schooling the number 1 p4p just to show what he's capable of on his best night.

 

I have him at 22. Lack of unifying hurt him a little, and he miss a few big fights down the line.

Keith

 

I think what hurts Pea the most is that he doesn't have a win against an all time great on his record at least officially. Which is actually the case with more legends than you would suppose... As for me pea is top 25.

 

I don't think it hurts him, considering pretty much everyone agrees he won the Chavez fight.

He also has the win over Nelson, albeit above his best weight.

 

Luf, your reasoning for the achievement category is very sound IMO. Those are all factors that should be considered other than resume. It's particularly important for Heavyweights. No division is more limited in ability to stack a resume than the one which is funny enough: Unlimited.

Skillswise, while I think peak performance is a fine gauge, I like to look at multiple different fights that took place during their peak or prime to gauge a more wide, accurate opinion on what they're capable of against different opponents, styles, situations.

 

Yeah I could see why you'd take that approach and that's fine, I just prefer to judge them when they're at their absolute best.

 

I forgot about the professor! Was there something in Pea's style that made judges hate him or was he just poorly connected? Change a few scorecards and the guy is something like 40-0 over 4.divisions. And then its his legacy looks so different...