Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Why do people keep bringing up frazier? Am I missing something here?

If liston has to resort to trading hooks because he can't land his jab (not a given at all) then he can do so successfully imo. How anyone can favour rocky to come off top in an exchage of power shots is beyond me.

 

Its about styles. even though both have one punch power up close in a tight tangle it will take more than one shot, even though rocky could be pushed back, I dont think he would be because of how low he would get. punching upwards inside was his forte. between the two marciano is most likely to work his hands free and land in bunches. As dangerous as Liston was I just dont think he takes marciano's power if he is hit more times than rocky is. just my take.

 

No! Not even H2H IMO.

Liston has those two quick wins over Patterson and wins over Folley, Machen, and Williams as was pointed out.

Marciano beat Louis, Marciano x2, Charles x2, and Moore... all Hall of Famers. Marciano was only down twice in 49 fights and got up to stop both of those fighters (Walcott and Moore)... 3-0 (3) vs. these men.

Liston was down vs. Martin, Ali, and got his jaw broke vs. Marshall... 2-4 (1) vs. these men and stopped x3.

 

I noticed that. Liston would hurt a man (usualy a frozen man) on the outside, step in use a short hook then back up to find a better angle and get him again. Do you think marciano is not going to be fighting back while liston is making room on the inside?

Liston had great craft and did hurt men at any range. I just dont think any were as tough as marciano or stylisticly as awkward.

yes marciano fought a lot of speedy box fighters with more seasoning and experience than liston.

Not if he isnt punching back, I agree with this, but can you honestly see rocky not hitting back? Can you honestly guarantee Liston lands first inside and wins all the exchanges?

when did rocky get hit a lot? I dont think faster, slicker punchers with better workrates ever managed to land more blows on rocky than he was able to clip them back with. why would a heavier and slower man beat the workrate and land more punches on the crab like, side on marciano than charles, walcott and moore?

The reach is masive, its huge. If Liston was the kind of man who gets up on his toes, stays away then he wins hands down. It would be a cake walk for liston. but liston only used that reach to hurt a guy from long range on his way in, he did not keep anyone away with his reach he was always coming in to bust someone up after landing at range. The lowest Liston weighed was 200lb in 1953 and the heaviest marciano weighed was 192lb in 1951. size matters but so does experience, durability and toughness.

my case is not thin, I have given genuine boxing arguments as to how marciano would be Listons toughest ever fight. You are coming back with "Liston was a bigger man so he wins and if you dont agree with me I am going to say you have an agenda" I have already defended myself by saying there are other champions who would have better chances against marciano than liston. If you are trying to say I am a racist I hope you will take it back.

Liston can be hit. everyone landed on Liston and rocky was better than all the guys Liston beat who icidently did not offer the same awkwardness as marciano.

I dont think the term "swarmer" fits marciano. It is generalising. It would be suicidal for rocky to "swarm in" against anyone with the reach he had thats why he never did it. Marciano adapted a style where because of his reach they came to him. rocky edged in very carefuly and was not exposed to anything until he was at a range where he could get off first. Marciano was not a square footed come straight at you swarmer.

marciano wins because he has a crouch? I have never ever said this. what I have said is marciano drew people down to him where he can reach them. cleverer fighters than LIston fell for it and so would LIston. From outside it was hard to land more than a glancing blow before rocky was in the other guys face.

and also in my opinion. But marciano absolutly would not walk into liston without an opening. The other guy was feinted into making the first move. rocky is not standing upright, frozen and waiting. He is not going to be picked off and kept outside beacuse Liston did not use that reach to keep people away. rocky leaned back forcing the other guy to lean down, then with his feet close enough to the other guys feet he could reach them. liston would land one glancing blow on the way in if he is lucky but after that hes in rockys world.

ali matches rocky for durabilty and toughness. patterson less so. I could also ask did Lliston beat anyone as good as charles, walcott and Moore. How many contenders better than rex layne and lastarza outside of title fights did Liston meet who actualy came to fight? without touching on Listons controversial clay fights I think these are fair points.

This is a very fair point. marciano was not superman but he was as well prepared to go against the odds as anyone. considering you have not proved to me how Liston gets around marcaino's awkwardness, work rate, power and durability I would say marciano is worth a very good chance. If marciano fought like floyd patterson, square on stuck on the outside waiting to be hit I would agree with you. If rocky was no better than roy harris,stood up tall waiting to beat liston to the draw with shorter arms I would have to agree with you. If marciano was intimidated by fighting a man as big I would also agree with you. but I cannot because IMO marciano would not do those things.

 

Can you name the pin point punchers with power comparable to Liston's that Rocky fought that were comparable in size and reach to Sonny and also in their physical prime when they fought Rocky ... I must have missed that fight ..

 

walcott was a pin point puncher who's sharpness and timing had the same effect with selected timed blows as Liston. Naturaly he was not as strong or as heavyhanded with each punch but with sharpness when he timed a blow wallcot iced top fighters with single shots. Archie Moore also. For many years too. neither man was comparable in size to Liston but both as capable as icing a man of the top level. Now marciano did fight a faded Joe Louis who matched Liston for size and he did fight john shkor who was bigger than Liston about the size of bonecrusher smith obviously not Listons league but if you combine what walcott and moore had with shkor and joe Louis's size and put it all into one man he still would not be sonny liston but would that guy be a problem for marciano? I dont think so. In short marciano fought dangerous punchers and he fought big guys but not ones who were both dangerous and big..its not a big deal when Listons jaw wasnt any better than big guys marciano KO'd.

 

no way are walcott and moore as hard icers as liston. Liston sparked opponents out as often as Marciano, but with more one punch KO power.

 

Marciano's wins over Ezzard Charles are worth more than Liston's wins over glass-jawed Floyd Patterson.

Add Prime Joe Walcott (he was champion when Marciano beat him), Rex Layne (who had a pretty good resume) and Harry "Kid" Matthews, and I really don't see how you could put Liston over Marciano.

Also, head-to-head, Marciano would smash Liston's glass jaw like a hot knife through butter. If feather-fisted Muhammad Ali could knock Liston out in one minute with a jab, then a Marciano powerpunch would demolish him.

 

Liston stood up to lots of heavy punchers and was clearly fine after te Ali II fight - your post has no basis.

'hot knife through butter' is just another example of stupid Marciano hyperbole. You'll have Marciano Koing Godzilla based on that nonsense.

 

agreed.:good

here we go again "face forward"!! we are talking about the championship class here.... crusierweight! another new observation.:yep I am glad you hold back on "super heavyweight" this time. marciano was over 190 when he turned pro but came down to be as fit as he could, he still bumped up to 192 as late as 1951. He was killing himself to be as light as he could. Liston was 198lb and raw boned in his first year as a pro then grew another 12 or so pounds. The point I am making is both started out within pounds of each other. one decided to train to develpo more power, the other decide to train to develop more stamina.

tell me when did Liston use his distance to fend a man off like the Klitchkos? are you saying Liston is part of that group? being as fair as I can, just thinking about it the klitchkos stand a much better chance than Liston against rocky because they did exactly that. rocky didnt rush forward from outside chucking bombs - he gave that apearance without actualy doing it because there is so much hi-lighted edited film out there. If you study full rounds it was not the case. Liston used his reach to land first, he led with power not fending, off defensive, draining point scoring work.

well I cannot argue with your opinion, it is loaded with the un original, established maxim of "good big guys versus good small guys" which I fully accept as being in the majority view on this match up. I also understand you rightly feel that rocky fights back and that you expect him to be weaker in all departments but heart etc. However, it alarms me that you wont adress the stylistic issues of Liston becoming frustrated with a tough little man who he cant catch clean on the way in, climbs all over him inside then hits him clean at odd angles more often and with more power than any man he faced before. alarming because you whole heartedly aknowledge harry greb can give away more pounds and do this with far less power - even though there is no film to fully study how he did this.

 

No.

 

That’s true. Albert westphal was iced with one clean shot. little unrated westphal a man Liston himself called "quick fall".

Marciano iced Walcott with a clean shot. world ATG champion jersey Joe Walcott.


can you see the similarity?

now, I am not saying Liston could not do it with "one shot" at world level but what I am saying is have you seen him do it?

 

Rocky will lose if he stays on the outside. He will be hit with the jab on the way in and he will lose the war on the inside.

Rocky's best hope is to land a clean ko shot which I can't see him doing.

Honestly, hook for hook, rocky has no chance.

I'm alarmed you paint rocky as this elusive phenom landing punches you don't see coming.

Film and history paints him as a swarmer with incredible heart and great p4p power who essentially competed in the cw division aside from a fight against an over the hill, though very formidable, joe louis.

Charles, walcott, moore and rocky would not be heavyweights today they would all be small cruiserweights (the versions liston fought). Rocky will never have faced the blunt force trauma coming his way when he engages with liston.

Competitive? yes for maybe 6 rounds until the damage tells on the small cruiser.