Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

Everything Liston did was behind that big left jab - he could slip a punch and inside he worked the body, refused to tie up instead throwing combinations to seperate...

You can't teach how fight like Marciano did... ain't no way, be arrested under cruelty act, in so many ways his style doesn't lend itself to these theortical match-ups.

But he may win such a contest between himself and Liston.

Hell, Marciano, if you put him on his best day, against any of the other Heavyweights, on their best day - he could win.

But looking at the styles, I would make Liston favourite. But couldn't say he would most definitely of won had the two met.

 

Willie Besmanoff has an entirely different style to Marciano really. Of course he would beat hit, Marciano was no defense master like you say he was.

 

Maybe your view is overcomplicating the matter. Occum's Razor anyone? Rocky never lost and was never remotely close to being stopped.

Is Liston going to win a points decision?

 

The closer they are the better it is for Marciano. His reach disadvantage becomes an advantage if he is leaning on Listons chest.

 

The reason he never lost was due to the talent pool. I give props to Rocky for fighting great fighters like Walcott, Charles, and Moore, but they were still past their best and they clearly weren't in the same form they previously were. Charles still got quite a few shots on Marciano and hurt him multiple times in their first fight.

Liston would stop him IMO, Marciano never fought a puncher like Liston with the same reach and weight difference. I know you can say the same thing with Liston, but at least Liston has faced plenty of fighters the same physique and style of Rocky. Not saying they were the same, but Liston would've handled Rocky.

 

And Who was it that Liston fought that was close to Marciano at any level, punching,stamina,chin heart and relentlessness.....

 

All of these points are incidental and not disputed.

Liston is a physically larger and stronger than Marciano. Agree or disagree?

If you agree -and you should- then that means that Marciano's style is unlikely to get him the win in this match-up. Wading in directly at Liston will invite concussions, cuts, and catastrophe for the Rock.

 

Came within a round of being stopped against charles and by all accounts lastarza beat him first time round.

The razor firmly points at liston here. Two men exchanging blows, you gonna favour the bigger stronger man or the smaller weaker man?

 

I disagree that Liston would be more effective on the inside here, personally. Unless he goes the Wlad/Ali route and tries to smother Rocky by clinching (and even that's not a given that it works), I see Marciano's shorter punches being much more effective than Liston's Stretch Armstrong-esque reach in close quarters.

Liston does have the advantage on the outside for as long as he's able to keep it there. If Rocky can't get inside, it's Liston's fight to lose.

The X-factor for me is, what's Sonny going to do when he's faced with a relentless puncher who won't crumble early and has the ability to last with him in a dogfight? I'm not sold he's got the mentality to weather it and not crack. On paper, Sonny's got the physical advantages...but if we're talking about being proven in a war against a top fighter who won't back down, Rocky's shown he can do that. I think that's still a question mark for Sonny.

 

agree. just like 90% of marciano's opponents Liston has an edge in size, however they are both 1950s heavyweights who turned pro within 5lb of each other. Marciano trained for endurance and went down in weight where as liston trained for power and built up 12lb. If they both had the same trainer they would always have been 5lb of each other. If they started at simular starting point does it make the size diferential that imposible? nature originaly had them closer than you might think.

marciano never waded in directly, with his reach it was suicide against any heavyweight, thats why he never did it. This is a misconception. marciano feinted opponents towards him whilst carefuly edging in with a crab like , side on defence. Liston may land single glancing blows breifly from outside but he wont land clean from that distance. there was more sophistication to marcianos style than you give him credit.

 

I favour the undefeated granite chinned champ with the unmatched stamina and one punch ko power in two hands.

The assumption that Liston is stronger is arguable. Rockys chin was proven to be better, unless Liston took a few dives. In that case are we comparing undefeated Liston or defeated Liston?

In that case, wasnt Rocky paid to stop fighting by the mob in case he koed their champ Liston? Sound ludicrous, well then....

 

The first lastarza fight is considered a gift victory so the undefeated argument is weak. Both jersey joe and archie dropped rocky so the chin isn't exactly granite.

Any assumption is arguable. That's the nature of debating a subjective sport.

I'd say rocky's chin is not proven to be better at all. Liston's beard isn't under question here.

Liston was outclassed by ali and either quit or threw his shoulder out. Rocky wouldn't quit but he'd equally be outclassed.

In the rematch, again, liston was either clean flash knockdowned or quit. If ali did throw a punch hard enough to actually have that affect then he could do the same to rocky. If not, rocky would probably just lose by wide ud or late stoppage.

 

Two close fights with Johnny Summerlin, lost to Marty Marshall (Marshall who was really a LHW broke Liston's jaw), looked less than great vs. Machen, looked like **** vs. Ali x2 and was dropped in the 1st round by Ali (fight should have continued though), brutally knocked out by Martin... Williams ain't **** x2 and neither was Valdes... by the time he fought Liston. Looked great vs. Liston x2 and Folley who were good small HWs with less than great chins. Whitehurst and Westphal? really

 

If Jersey Joe can put marciano down and outbox him for 13 rounds surely Liston, a man whos boxing skills are underated, especially with that jab, could beat him, possibly even by knockout. Marciano faught very few contenders IMO.

 

Its your opinion that Rocky would be outclassed and if someone has a per-notion about a fighter then its almost impossible to open up there mind. I personally agree with Ali when he stated that Marciano would be his toughest fight but I did not always think Marciano was so good but later learned to appreciate his subtle defense while being able to land some unorthodox rhythm breaking bombs. Ali was a pinpoint puncher but he lacked the power that Jersey Joe Walcott had in either hand and although he was faster than Archie and a larger man he did not have Archie's power.

Styles make fights and many would assume that Liston would beat Marciano because he was an inch bigger,weighed more and had a longer reach but thing don't always pan out that way especially when one of the fighters had an incredible will and tough style. IMO Liston would not be an easy fight for Marciano but Marciano would be a tougher fight for Liston and the intangibles such as the Bigger heart play a major role here.

To say that Marciano was dropped by Walcott and Moore so what would Sonny do would be like saying Liston quit 2X vs Ali, had his jaw broken by 180 Marty Marshall and was KO'd by Leotis Martin (who was not known as a puncher) after Leotis got off the floor and did not quit had an effect on Sonny. Also Burt Whitehurst went the distance with Sonny 2X while getting KO'd 2X by Archie Moore in the same time frame....Marciano was A DIFFERENT ANIMAL THAN ANYTHING SONNY WAS IN THE RING WITH AND WE REALLY DO not know how Sonny deals with it.

I remember a guy named Mike Tyson and a guy named Evander and in Evanders last fight he had a tough time stopping former middleweight bobby Cyz (Cyz was KO'd in 2 next fight vs Corrie Sanders) Tyson had more power, was meaner but Evander had no fear for him and somehow Tyson smelled it...well Tyson got stopped to my surprise and found a way to quit in the rematch and I see that parallel in a Liston/Marciano fight.

In My humble opinion