Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

I'm not sold on that being a legit punch. too much controversy to judge Liston's chin just based on that fight.

If it was a legit punch, it would have to do with Ali's speed and delivery, not power. He basically countered Liston coming in with a jab, Marciano never would do that..

I see Liston's fights against Folley, DeJohn, and Williams more telling of his chin because they hit harder then Ali. And none of them knocked out Liston or made him quit.

 

so why (if it was a fix) did sonny continue to trade when he did get up? why when walcott waved them back on didnt sonny wobble into the ropes with his hands down to show he could not defend himself as seldon was critisised for doing against Tyson years later? Liston put on a non effort against Ali in maine but plenty of listons own opponents put on non efforts against him and sonny gets kudos for it. he cant have it both ways. I have avoided including the ali fights so far beacuse It is better to debate Listons chances at his best.

 

Because a certain Ring Magzine editor and founder called Walcott over and told him Liston was down longer than the ten count.

Of couse Nat failed to read the rules that the count does not begain until the standing figher is in the corner. That fight should have went on, Liston was down and hurt, and he didnt even heard 1. With Ali standing over him, He cant really risk getting up and getting hurt on the process of getting up.

He was still out of it though so I not sure if he could have beaten a ten count. But once he got up, he went on fighting with Ali until Walcott step in and stop the fight on what Nat said.

 

i know it is off thread but if you don't see sportsmen with mob backing (or as choklab says, a history of involvement in questionable events) as a risk of fixing, before they do it, how can you properly analyse sport, let alone the history of the most historically corrupt sport.

forget history and watch it like a live fight.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8aeUPMbjog[/ame]

I have seen enough people knocked loopy, and had it myself enough times to know it just don't happen like that. and i have little knowledge of nat fleischer but he was a powerfull man in the sport. .

each to his own but read this.
http://tenniszoom.net/tennis-news/41-players-in-black-list-over-match-fixing.html (and from my own i could tell you about 20 of those names, and it is no coincidence that the nationality of many of these players is the same as regions of the world with active organised crime. and many of the fixed matches are also in those countries)

and also tell me it hasn't always happened, from the fixed world series and before, to liston.

maybe it increases my judgement of liston as a boxer because the worst loss wasn't real.

but imo the rock is better historicaly, h2h, fitter, in all the intangibles, and had a smart career as well.

 

The arguments are out there, going along the lines of, Liston is bigger and stronger so he wins, even though Rocky always fought bigger men.

Regardless, it has some validity.

The thing that irks me most is people saying they would put their house on the fight or that is is a sure thing. That is absolute bull**** and just shows what kind of trash talker these guys are.

None of those arguing for Marciano seem to be doing it, because they have a balanced argument. The Liston is bigger pushers can't see through their rose tinted glasses.....Liston didn't lose to Ali coz of the mob, it didnt count when Liston got his jaw broken, Liston was so much bigger he must win h2h - the same reason you would all pick Valuev over Ali.

Be more balanced instead of opinionated. It is a hypothetical fight between two great hw champions, and no one knows for sure the outcome, so i sure as hell wouldnt bet my house on any result.

 

No it's not because he's bigger it's because he's a bigger man who can effectively fight on the inside.

Same reason i'd also expect frazier, tyson and bowe to beat rocky.

I don't think anyone would call it a sure thing because anything can happen in the sport. But I believe liston would be a favourite and that's really as far as I can go. I can hypothesise but 1 punch changes everything.

However when the two clash in the middle i'd pick liston to be the one left standing hence i'd make him him the favourite.

Rather than revert to labels and petty insults just enjoy the hypothetical match up for what it is: two of history's best infighter's trading blows. Then if it doesn't depress you too much, cast your eyes to the next hw championship fight: wlad v mormeck and see if you'll be as hyped for that fight.

 

This seems to be the case. :good

stylisticly marciano would always be awkward for liston. how many times do you see a tough smaller journey man with no punch that mauls like hell frustrate a bigger more fancied fighter lasting the distance? the answer is quite a lot. Marciano would at least do this to Liston only he had a punch in both hands! To be fair and balanced you just have to give rocky a good chance.

 

I simply think that a prime Sonny brings too much to the table to lose to the Rock.

 

Liston on paper is a demigod. In reality, he's built on tin foil. Marciano accurately pegged Liston a bully that could be "had" prior to the Clay fight. Some could argue Marciano had a dislike for Liston; that Liston was souring the prestige with his representation as champion for all HW champions. Heck, even Marciano picked Patterson against Liston (Most former HW champs did, though, to be fair).

There are stories out there of an incident between Marciano and Liston. I've heard differentiating details between what happened in the story, but this story is not mythic. I know Lou Duva has reported that there was an incident that did in fact happen. Supposedly, Marciano was interviewing Liston for his radio show and Liston asked how he thought Marciano would do against him. Marciano sheepishly said, "Well Liston you're a big guy," Liston quickly cut him off and said something to the likes of "I would've murdered you." Marciano basically then challenged Liston to fight in the ring if he felt that way. Liston's handlers' jumped all of that. Another take on the story I've heard is that Liston was being interviewed when he said that he punched harder than Marciano. Marciano heard and challenged Liston to a fight in the ring. Nothing escalated after Liston's handlers jumped in.

I actually don't think we have enough information on Liston's psyche to pick him in this fight. Maybe Marciano breaks his jaw and Liston loses (Marshall weighed 179 or so, right?). Marciano won't back-peddle and play defense like Machen. Williams tested Liston well, but only briefly. The going never really got too rough and tough to the point of someone actually wanting to quit. Marciano will be there and he's not going down and out early like Patterson. It didn't take a lot for Liston to quit against Ali. Liston may have not trained well and prepared himself mentally for such a fight, but physically he wasn't nearly as foregone on film as some of his fanatics claim him to be do. If he was at all, really. Marciano doesn't really ever get that analysis of physical decline because he always came to fight. Consistency can be a little overlooked.

 

I see where you are coming from and understand that it is the established view. I just dont think of this fight as being between a face first cruiser going against a heavyweight because rocky was so much more than that. marciano was a proven 1950s heavyweight atg, expert at making what he had work against disadvantages and very very awkward. I see Liston as a great heavyweight more used to thngs going his way and therefre less prepared for problems he would find with Rocky.

 

Thanks for responding Choke. I agree that this result isn't etched in stone.
But I see Marciano, "as a great heavyweight more used to things going his way and less prepared for problems he would find with Sonny'.
This fantasy matchup reminds me of the Frazier-Foreman title fight in many ways. I was there and no one, I mean no one, gave the 'green' George a rats chance in hell of beating Joe.
And what I just said reminds me of, perhaps, the greatest fantasy matchup: prime Frazier vs. prime Marciano.

 

Liston's weight went up for the same reason our weight goes up. We grow into our bodies and gain weight as we age. It's harder to lose weight as we age, which is why guys fight in heavier divisions when they get over 30.

PS/ Liston was not past 40 when he fought Clay. He was not born before 1930.

Bigger does not always mean stronger. But here Liston is both bigger and stronger and if you read my earlier posts you'd know that I strongly believe that in this particular match-up, that is going to matter.

Marciano isn't going to stick and move on him. He fights one way and that way is going to be the reason why he loses.

Now, I see Pete the Prince's post about character. I have a higher opinion of Liston's character in the ring than he does, but that remains your strongest argument on behalf of Marciano -not Marciano's style or his strength unless you can demonstrate how those would help and not hurt him against Liston.

Marciano's subtle moves did not prevent him from taking lots of shots. He was an aggressive pressure fighter and those guys are not Marlon Starlings in there.

To be in Liston's range means he will get hit often --not 100% of the time but often enough to do real damage. Marciano would get hit and hit again and instead of stepping off or dipping out, he'd keep coming. That's a nightmarish style for alot of heavyweights ...this side of Liston. Guys like Walcott will concede space. Moore eventually had to concede space. But Liston? I don't see him giving up the driver's seat unless there's a .38 at his temple with Carbo on the other end. Liston is going to keep firing and he can fire very well from THREE ranges, and in combintation.

Rocky is a lumberjack. He keeps wearing his man down, wearing him down, until it becomes a battle of wills ---and those he wins.

His problem is this: Marciano has to rely on his will and his chin far more than his defense, which alone isn't enough. He's got to take punishment before he can take over. His physical strength, which he leveraged well by crouching on those catcher's thighs, bought him the time he needed because he would bull the other guy backwards. When the other guy is bulled backwards, he ain't hitting him.

--If it's Liston he's fighting, he isn't going to be the bull in there. And therefore he won't be taking over or buying time. Can he take Liston's shots (and more of them) like he did Walcott's or Charles's or Moore's?

I say no sir.

 

I think prime frazier is harder to beat than Foreman found him. The odds were based on frazier (because he was still unbeaten) being prime but he was not. The majority felt prime frazier would beat a young green george. Everyone still felt Frazier still had it, thats why nobody picked foreman going into their first fight.


Foreman looked awsome because he wasnt getting hit back - if you watch foremans recent fight against ted gullick just before the frazier fight he got caught with plenty. Frazier would have hurt george bad with even the timing gullick had.

so it turned out to be a calculated gamble that paid off for team Foreman because the green Foreman could walk into frazier without getting hit on the way in as he would have been had Frazier been at his best. As it turned out, career timing at its best since 70% of peak fraziers defence was how he could time and double up that lead hook at any range. You take away that timing and he has to take shots on the way in. Thats ok against ali and joe bugner but suicide against foreman. George had fun with frazier but he would not have had so much of an easy time before TFOTC.


I dont think Frazier was like marciano anymore than Liston was like foreman. In fact jamaca Frazier was not even TFOTC Frazier - but that is besides the point.

Frazier and marcinao were two different types of fighters.

Frazier was a rhythm fighter, an energiser bunny with a pin point left hook he could double up and land at any range. He weaved his head as much to transfer his weight from one foot to the other to launch a shot as opposed to avoiding a punch. If his head went down it was coming back up even if your punch was on its way.

Marciano countered his way in. where as Frazier led.

Marciano drew a fighter into him as opposed to chasing him out of the ring. He had no rhythm but that made him deadly because there was no pattern to follow. You moved in to reach him then he hit you. Frazier met you with a punch, it was already coming.

With Frazier what you saw was what you got. Marciano looked crude but there was method to the madness that could catch you out. rocky also had two hands and he did not swarm for the sake of swarming. Both could fight all day but only rocky made his openings. Frazier had one gear flat out, straight at you.

 

I agree with this, what Frazier and Marciano had in common was great heart and great stamina...Frazier said 2 fighters that would beat him were Louis and Marciano but in his prime no one else...Frazier had a short career but I think he became an overnight household name after the FOTC and he was on a singing tour with Joe Frazier and the Knock Outs...lots of girls lots of partying Frazier was never the same after the FOTC ...hard to have longevity with his style, that instant sudden success after FOTC and 5 Mil a lot a very lot of $$$ back then

 

yet Marciano came down in weight as he got older... would you discount the idea that developing more stamina in those days focussed on running which takes weight off a man? Liston developing more power focussed more on a bulking up process.

well lets see you corect the next Liston fan who uses that as an excuse as to why sonny was past his best against clay.

glad to hear it.

it could be negligable though couldnt it?

one cannot discount rockys abilty to maul inside like many journeymen do, or like harry greb did so often against bigger foes with far less firepower than marciano.

fair point. difficult to hit clean though wasnt he? Although human, I cannot discount the possibilty of marciano getting iced with one shot but I very much doubt it. all great fighters have high levels of anticipation and are difficult to ice in their peak years. why should marciano? he was a special fighter after all. was joe louis or ali ever taken out with one shot?

he would keep coming into a range that was safe for him. head down, up close and low. marciano would land those unpredictable shots that are hard to defend against inside as well as his head and forearms nudging away and effecting sonnys footing.

Liston would never concede space intentionaly but he would step off to find a better angle or more space. marciano would be on him like a cat with more pop in his punches than sonny was used to as soon as he moved.

Liston was indeed expert at landing at three ranges against upright square footed fighters waiting on the outside looking to beat liston to the draw with a shorter reach. They were of a lower calibre and different style to marciano entirely. remember arturo godoy against joe louis the first time? arturo had the same trainer as marciano and godoy took away about 2 of those ranges that Louis also had.

Do you think rocky decides to take shots on the chin to break Listons will? if this were the case I would agree but I recon marciano relies on that side on crab defence fist. how close he gets and how awkward liston finds him will make his chin (which is better than listons) the last line of defence.

But if he is not getting hit clean its not big punishment. Listons slower, heavy, blunter blows wont be whipping in the gaps like charles and walcotts better timed precision strikes.
a few glancing blows on the way in, that is nothing new or outside of rockys comfort zone. Liston however would be made very much outside of his comfort zone. He will be getting hit a lot more.


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Liston has not got 50lb on marciano its about 20lb and one inch in height. I would still say given his awkwardness marciano still saps liston inside with his mauling and is no rag doll in there for liston to throw around. Liston will panic and get hit more often and harder than he is used to by a more proven fighter.