Liston over Marciano - Can Anyone Sanely...

The longer this fight goes, the better Marciano's chances. Admittedly, Liston was an inch and a half taller <cough>.

If Liston can't get Rocky out of the ring by round 7 he will be ground down and KOed. Liston gave up (faded) against Ali and his stamina can't really be comparable to Marciano.

If Liston has the heavy hands his supporters believe, that is, enough to KO Rocky early, he will win unless Rocky gets the early KO. If not, Liston loses or gets destroyed for their second fight, in which Rocky wins with an early KO.

 

I can accept that, but Marciano's intangible of never being beaten makes this a reasonably close fight, particularly in hindsight.

 

I was not using it as a measuring stick, just an example of a man with better stamina giving away 20lb and being able to hurt and upset the comfort zone of the larger slower paced man without running or being quick footed.

 

marciano's intangibles make him a massive favourite. i would like to hear a bookmakers opinion but i would take a start position on the rock and again if the odds better after a couple of rounds.
p.s i don't sit behind a computer staring at sport for fun(especially tennis, damn i hate watchin tennis all day), my opinions on making money from sport based on experience. (although i rarely move on boxing or cycling as i actually like these sports)

anyone who puts their money on someone who could fix or give up possibly shouldn't bet at all.

liston early ko or a couple kd's might be a saver but mental weakness is unnaceptable in a top level sportsman. (golota, andy murray, wozniaki, jan ulrich, countless others with all the physical skills but always lose to quality opposition when it matters)

 

People are getting hung up on the fact he's unbeaten. A huge number of champions throughout history could have retired undefeated had they wanted to but they carried on too long.

That aside lastarza deserved to beat rocky in the first fight anyway.

 

Except Liston didn't collaspe like a Golata who did not win one major fight ... the fact that Liston crushed Valdez, Folley, Williams and Patterson and defeated Machen throws the mentally weak aspect out of this debate .. I'd be sure of one thing and that is if this were not a fantasy match up but an actual bout very few of the Marciano guys would put up a nickel of their money on him ... there is no sound argument based on anything other than fan worship to favor Marciano over Liston .. you cannot even compare a Marciano at 35 or so v.s. the Liston who fought ALi as by that point the very smart Marciano was retired, waddling around at close to 230 and a bad toupe and shylocking money all over the country ... maybe he used Liston to collect for him ..

 

you keep saying this even though I have laid down many strong stylistic reasons why marciano would be difficult for sonny and none of them has anything to do with fan worship.

without touching on the punching power marciano had ( a problem in itself for Liston who was decked by a lightheavyweight remember) stylisticaly marciano would be as awkward for LIston as arturo godoy was first time around for Joe louis.

Now, for the THIRD time of asking how about answering my question:

"did Liston top marciano for heart, durability, stamina, did he have the capacity to beat men bigger than he was and was sonny slick enough to neutralise Marciano&#8217;s awkwardness?"

Please bare in mind Sonny was great viewing winning one sided fights but against rocky it cannot be all one way for sonny what ever way you look at it. Liston's back catalogue of competitive fights wasn&#8217;t quite so cool to watch.

 

without the film we will never know if folley came to fight or was caught in the headlights like patterson and harris.

summerlin, whithurst, marshal, neal wealch, even cab, king and besmanoff gave liston so much extra resistance it makes me wonder if many better fighters simply froze against Liston.

Liston still knocked out brave men but not elite fighters who realy gave proper resistance. I am not saying this makes Liston a bully I am saying thats how it panned out, the best fighters he knocked out never got going and offered nothing back.

valdes was on the skids when he met Liston and williams (whilst dangerous) was not proven at elite level. It leaves only the machen and patterson, ali and martin fights as his best examples on film against elite fighters. Is that enough to put your house on?

 

When there's no speed advantage either side and you effectively have two men swinging shots at each other (high probability of each shot landing) it's just good sense to favour the bigger, stronger, harder hitting man.

Liston tko 9 marciano.

 

wow i can't believe some think marciano has a chance here.liston would beat him really bad.that jab and that power,not only that,that crouching style of marciano is perfect practice for liston shooting uppercuts.

 

You aren't giving any credit at all to Liston for these wins. It's kind of sad tbh. Patterson was trying to land punches in BOTH fights, Liston just proved to be too big and strong for him.

There is an article out there about how Folley nailed Liston with a few good right hands until Liston adjusted and knocked him out.

 

9 times out of ten it would figure out that way but its not how it always pans out otherwise all presure fighters would only ever lost to bigger men. It could be a bit too generalising and lazy to asume such a notion.

 

These are good points and obvious until you study marciano more closely. rocky was hard to nail with jabs. The side on stance also proves dificult to crack with uppercuts since the shoulder protects the jaw that much more than say with the peekaboo stance with the chin in line with the navel. How low rocky got outside would take away the full leverage required to get full lift into an uppercut anyway. yes liston hits rocky from outside but it is with glancing blows IMO. inside its 60-40 in marcianos favour. Liston was a hunter. He would always come inside.

 

Marciano came down in weight only negligibly. Once he became a world-class fighter with training methods that weren't in a Brockton backyard and ma's spaghetti was at a safe distance, he was pretty consistent. He also trained like a freak of nature.

Again, Liston was not aiming to "bulk up" -he would walk around at considerably more than 208 lbs. He was a much bigger man than Marciano, and the Rock tended to get fat when not training. Liston got bulkier -and slower. He trained down.

Sure, the idea that Liston was 40ish when he fought Clay is one of boxing's biggest myths.

However, anyone who tells me that Liston was in his prime against Clay is a dum-dum.

I think Liston was considerably stronger than anything Marciano faced. And I think that matters in this particular fight.

Greb's success was a result of speed, not mauling. Marciano isn't fast.

Oh, I have no doubt that Marciano will not get iced with one shot by Liston or anyone else this side of Zeus. Marciano's recuperative powers were ridiculously good. Liston's shots were the bludgeon type anyway -you could see them. He isn't finishing off Marciano before 8 rounds at least and if he did finish him at all, it would be by TKO.

Had Liston been a cruiserweight, I'd agree. I just don't see Marciano having his way in there.

Marciano would test him, sure. He may even land shots wicked enough to make Sonny change his expression. Goldman would have a strategy as good as it gets for a fighter like Marciano to do maximimum damage but again, these adjustments aren't going to make the difference in my mind.

Excellent point! You disrupted my confidence with this and made me go look things up! You bum!

Arturo had the same manager as Rocky, not the same manager. Godoy was trained by Whitey Bimstein who once said "show me a fighter who is undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody." Ahem.

Bimstein assisted Goldman in Marciano's corner at times, but Goldman was his trainer.

Liston's opponents were not all stand-up boxers. Henry Clark had a little shade of Marciano in his style.

Marciano's chin is only arguably better than Liston's. Any difference would be negligible.

I didn't say that Marciano is going to say "hit me." I said that he would necessarily take as much punishment as he always had, only more so because of the strength and firepower factors.

Marciano's defense just wasn't as good as you are saying. Liston will connect on him, that's just a fact. He will connect lots, that's almost certain.

Liston panic? I doubt that.

No cruiserweight in history beats Liston. Not Marciano or Dempsey, though I'd concede that it would be interesting to see and I'm not 100% that 1959 Liston beats 1952 Marciano, but I'd bet on him.

 

You question Liston's opposition who were all proven and all in their physical primes but not Marciano's whose big four career opponents averaged 36 plus years of age ? Can we please be serious ...