Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

Lead foot positioning was key to Marquez's success, and it requires consistent lateral movement, which Floyd often neglects. I've boxed for years myself, so you don't need to act like you're a genius when you're not providing anything insightful and don't have a response to the facts already presented in this thread.

"FMJ is everything JMM is x10." This simply isn't true and is one of the most idiotic things you could say. As you say, "this is boxing", and in boxing, styles and the way fighters apply their physical attributes are more important than these factors by themselves. If you're vulnerable to consistently getting caught at a side angle, reach and speed aren't going to bail you out. If you don't think Pacquiao's mobility is what brings him great success, then you simply don't pay attention.

When you can somehow rationalize that ceding lead foot positioning against someone with the speed and power of Manny's left hand isn't a liability and hasn't made Floyd look more vulnerable than he should given his athleticism and Ring IQ in the past, then come back. Otherwise, be on your way happily sucking Floyd's dick. There's no point trying to reason with someone as biased and relentlessly defensive of Floyd's every breath as yourself. Take tips from a Floyd fan like Leon if you want to be taken seriously.

 

That's definitely true; against traditional infighters that come forward straight, Floyd's guard is even more effective, which is why the only way Manny will land would be by circling:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4d5bgBcU3g&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

 

Pacquiao is mobile if you don't take away his angle. He focuses on either stepping all the way out to the left, or landing and stepping to the right to get away and/or resume his attack. Clottey was not a brawler, Cotto was not a brawler, Barrera was not a brawler, and Manny had success repeating this formula. If he weren't fleet footed and competent at working angles, he would have been stopped by now post-Roach due the flaws in his punching form and guard.

Whenever Marquez stood in front of Manny without ducking down and getting in Manny's inside due to his relatively similar size (which explains the GIF), he got caught in a similar matter. The lateral movement is key. Floyd is not superior to Marquez in this regard, and it shows in how he handles the likes of Judah and Oscar, fighting in straight lines and giving up the center of the ring consistently. Someone with his Ring IQ and athleticism shouldn't be walking into right hooks from the likes of Ortiz and rushing back into the ropes and shutting down offensively regardless of how cleanly the following shots landed. These habits are a liability. As the author of the article posted highlighted similar points stated, Floyd's back touched the ropes against Ortiz more than JMM's seemed to across all three Pacquiao fights. Floyd can be effective in the pocket against swarmers, but there are times he shuts down when he can't easily gauge what's coming at him and he has no more room to pull back and fire off his usual straight punches.

You can't compare JMM and Mayweather to how Manny and Mayweather would match up; Marquez is not really a dynamic aggressor, did not transition as well, and his lateral movement specializes defensively, not offensively. No comparison.

Reach is not a reliable way to compensate for being out of position and being caught at a vulnerable angle. No matter how long the right hand is, Floyd would have to dramatically reach to cross over and land the punch if Pacquiao succeeds in moving to his right. Judah was able to do so using minimal movement, and that movement went from minimal to ineffective once Floyd walked him down, but it took him 5 rounds to effectively pressure Zab. Throwing the left as a lead, counter, and behind a flinging jab is nothing Manny can't replicate. Their styles are not similar, but their use of the same punches are not dissimilar. The right hook counter Zab set up that bears similarity to Manny's illustrates exactly why reach, speed, etc. can't compensate for being out of position:

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I'm not fervently proclaiming that Pacquiao will beat Floyd; I'm simply pointing out dynamics that suggest that the fight will at least be competitive should Pacquiao maximize his dimensions and exploit Floyd's few weaknesses, so you can stop obsessively insulting me and ruining a thread that had a great few pages of thoughtful and respectful exchanges. If you're looking to battle with *******s with no knowledge of the sport, go somewhere else.

 

You misunderstand me; I meant that you can't compare the Mayweather-Marquez fight to a Mayweather-Pacquiao fight because JMM and Manny are nothing alike; you can certainly compare the two counter-punchers. Pacquiao and Judah have important differences, but the reason I bring up lead foot positioning in that fight is that Judah is being very simplistic in his approach to those early rounds. Pacquiao has a range of volume, and can throw single shots, short combinations of 1-3 punches, or try for one of his long strings of explosive shots. The reach is a factor, but Pac's feet are much springier, and he can step into a 1-2 as fast as Judah can pop it out, I feel. Lead lefts to the body, 1-1-2's upstairs, a counter right hook upstairs, a lead left in between the high guard or past the shoulder, right hooks to the body...all things we've seen Pac do himself. Pac's upper body rhythm and footwork are also better and could potentially allow him to get himself into those positions more often. I'm not sure how much he's slowed down though at this point; hard to tell how much the speed will help him.

Also, you're right about Ortiz's dominant hand, but he's done this against Mitchell, Corely, and Judah as well. He circles to the left in the early rounds, and tries to duck down as if they were orthodox fighters ready to throw left hooks. Though he stopped Mitchell fairly easily once he closed the distance, there were long stretches in the early rounds where Floyd would just follow him as he circled to the right, and caught him with a few shots I wouldn't expect from an orthodox fighter of the same caliber. It's the calculation Floyd puts into his shots when he leads that I think give that split second of a pause necessary to get the angle on him.

As far as a prediction goes, I used to favor Pacquiao via competitive decision, but that was really post-Cotto; I'll have to wait until the Bradley fight to see how committed Manny still is after his last two bad outings, which I don't yet see any reason to attribute to being "old" or "shot".

:good

Would you like to take over any further questions that have answers already written in previous pages for a bit? I assume there will be many more, and I have **** to do. It takes time defending such arguments for 42 pages virtually alone.

 

I simply have to disagree. I can see how there was a distinct sense of timing Judah was employing Manny doesn't seem to use, but a lot of the punches used were so basic and set up so simply. Unless Manny has slipped or has had his hand-speed slowed down considerably, I see him doing at least as well, and not being half as complaint to Floyd's pressure.