Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

MoJoGoodie · Mar 7, 2012

http://youtu.be/GfBmqlO6rh4

Pretty good break down as to why i think he fails with Floyd.

Bogotazo...you have good insight...how do u agree witht his video and how do you disagree?

Bogotazo · Mar 7, 2012

MoJoGoodie said: ↑

http://youtu.be/GfBmqlO6rh4

Pretty good break down as to why i think he fails with Floyd.

Bogotazo...you have good insight...how do u agree witht his video and how do you disagree?
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That's a good video, and I basically agree with all of it; it's a great breakdown of how Marquez found success technically and psychologically. But if you look at what I've written so far, many of those things I wouldn't consider applicable to the same degree in a Floyd-Manny match-up.

MoJoGoodie · Mar 7, 2012

Bogotazo said: ↑

That's a good video, and I basically agree with all of it; it's a great breakdown of how Marquez found success technically and psychologically. But if you look at what I've written so far, many of those things I wouldn't consider applicable to the same degree in a Floyd-Manny match-up.
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Hmmm...i dont know...the patience part i really agree with, the distance part i really agree with.

The problem i see though is that JMM and Floyd go about these two very different so it will be intresting to see how Floyd will impose these tactics.

Me personaly i think Floyd has all the tools to control distance forcing pac to reach and be out of position.

Floyd does not engage like Pac likes and usualy fights at a lot slower pace then Pac is used to also testing Pac's patience

Setting up punches also are done alot different by JMM and Floyd also but they still do it very effective in they're own rights.

I dont know is ee what your saying....i just think the video showed whats effective....and i think Floyd has all the tools to exploit all of those in the video some even better than JMM...mainly controlling DISTANCE.

Leon · Mar 7, 2012

Bogotazo said: ↑

I simply have to disagree. I can see how there was a distinct sense of timing Judah was employing Manny doesn't seem to use, but a lot of the punches used were so basic and set up so simply. Unless Manny has slipped or has had his hand-speed slowed down considerably, I see him doing at least as well, and not being half as complaint to Floyd's pressure.
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That's the thing. The 28 year old version of Zab Judah that Floyd fought is quicker and faster than the 33 or 34 year old version of emmanuel that Floyd will fight. Zab is also blessed with great athleticism and had quicker reflexes along with speed than Floyd. emmanuel hasn't ever been known as a superior athlete to Mayweather.

emmanuel is talking about how his legs hurt or cramp up in his last 2 fight. His style relies a **** load on using plenty of movement whether it be for offense or defending.

Bogotazo · Mar 7, 2012

MoJoGoodie said: ↑

Hmmm...i dont know...the patience part i really agree with, the distance part i really agree with.

The problem i see though is that JMM and Floyd go about these two very different so it will be intresting to see how Floyd will impose these tactics.

Me personaly i think Floyd has all the tools to control distance forcing pac to reach and be out of position.

Floyd does not engage like Pac likes and usualy fights at a lot slower pace then Pac is used to also testing Pac's patience

Setting up punches also are done alot different by JMM and Floyd also but they still do it very effective in they're own rights.

I dont know is ee what your saying....i just think the video showed whats effective....and i think Floyd has all the tools to exploit all of those in the video some even better than JMM...mainly controlling DISTANCE.
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Distance and patience are a big thing, but I think Manny won't be as initially hesitant at first as he was against JMM, who he knew so well and I think was expecting to counter...if Floyd doesn't rotate, I feel he just won't be as successful getting his punches off and defending himself.

Leon said: ↑

That's the thing. The 28 year old version of Zab Judah that Floyd fought is quicker and faster than the 33 or 34 year old version of emmanuel that Floyd will fight. Zab is also blessed with great athleticism and had quicker reflexes along with speed than Floyd. emmanuel hasn't ever been known as a superior athlete to Mayweather.

emmanuel is talking about how his legs hurt or cramp up in his last 2 fight. His style relies a **** load on using plenty of movement whether it be for offense or defending.
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Yea, if he comes in at anything less than optimal physical condition, he'll lose badly. He can compensate for what he doesn't have in Judah's athleticism with his mobility and unpredictability, but if he lacks that, then he'll just get solved right quick. That's why I'm intrigued in seeing how he looks against Bradley, a well-rounded opponent with some good hand speed of his own.

Farmboxer · Mar 7, 2012

Void tells everyone that he is extremely afraid of Pac, he has been running from Pac for years now, best indicator of fear is running...........

Canibus81 · Apr 5, 2012

bump

ajackman1 · Apr 20, 2012

Bogotazo said: ↑

Distance and patience are a big thing, but I think Manny won't be as initially hesitant at first as he was against JMM, who he knew so well and I think was expecting to counter...if Floyd doesn't rotate, I feel he just won't be as successful getting his punches off and defending himself.

Yea, if he comes in at anything less than optimal physical condition, he'll lose badly. He can compensate for what he doesn't have in Judah's athleticism with his mobility and unpredictability, but if he lacks that, then he'll just get solved right quick. That's why I'm intrigued in seeing how he looks against Bradley, a well-rounded opponent with some good hand speed of his own.
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I see the point your making that just because marquez style worked against pacquiao doesnt automatically mean mayweather style will work against pacquiao. However I think mayweather will win quite easily, I personally feel that mannny style is tailor made for a mayweather. One thing that makes mayweather special is his abilty to adjust in the ring, he always finds a way to win. Floyds a student of game and if they do fight for all we know it is very possible floyd will try and implement some of the stuff that worked for marquez.

Bogotazo · May 2, 2012

ajackman1 said: ↑

I see the point your making that just because marquez style worked against pacquiao doesnt automatically mean mayweather style will work against pacquiao. However I think mayweather will win quite easily, I personally feel that mannny style is tailor made for a mayweather. One thing that makes mayweather special is his abilty to adjust in the ring, he always finds a way to win. Floyds a student of game and if they do fight for all we know it is very possible floyd will try and implement some of the stuff that worked for marquez.
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If Floyd emulates the Marquez game-plan, then I can see that happening, but it's been so long since he's circled consistently, and even in cases where it would have benefited him under attack, his instinct was still to pull back, sometimes without any output himself. We'll see if/when the fight gets signed. I'm looking forward to seeing how Manny looks against Bradley.

SJS19 · May 2, 2012

Bogotazo said: ↑

If Floyd emulates the Marquez game-plan, then I can see that happening, but it's been so long since he's circled consistently, and even in cases where it would have benefited him under attack, his instinct was still to pull back, sometimes without any output himself. We'll see if/when the fight gets signed. I'm looking forward to seeing how Manny looks against Bradley.
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I wouldn't have him emulate Marquez's game plan. Marquez was soley reliant on timing and technical and tactical superiority. Mayweather has his own physical talents to play with.

Leon · May 2, 2012

SJS19 said: ↑

I wouldn't have him emulate Marquez's game plan. Marquez was soley reliant on timing and technical and tactical superiority. Mayweather has his own physical talents to play with.
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Plus Black guys unlike Mexicans actually clinch. It just so happens emmanuel doesn't have much experience in those trenches.

Bogotazo · May 2, 2012

SJS19 said: ↑

I wouldn't have him emulate Marquez's game plan. Marquez was soley reliant on timing and technical and tactical superiority. Mayweather has his own physical talents to play with.
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True, but I just can't get around the dangers lead foot positioning; as a fighter I'd make that a priority. Floyd can counter backing up, but he prefers to pressure southpaws, though he doesn't force clinches himself.

mrjotatp4p · May 2, 2012

Leon said: ↑

Plus Black guys unlike Mexicans actually clinch. It just so happens emmanuel doesn't have much experience in those trenches.
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lol:

daprofessor · May 2, 2012

Bogotazo said: ↑

This is a bit awkward for me as a Marquez fan, but hear me out. I feel that people are discrediting Marquez's win by equating him to Mayweather and basically generalizing with the concept that Manny would get beaten by any elite counter-puncher, including Floyd, by default. I have to say that people are harshly ignoring the nuances of the game by continually equating Marquez and Floyd without looking at the subtle but absolutely key aspects of their tactical profiles.

They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.

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Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows. I can point to the De La Hoya fight (which I thought he won) for evidence of this habit. De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.

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This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.
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This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

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Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach. Floyd can counter for 3 rounds and then come forward for 7, while Marquez can switch between momentary aggressor and counter-puncher several times within the same round.

Mayweather's great ability still gives him a logical avenue for victory- but don't think for a second that Pacquiao's own skills and physical gifts are a puzzle easily solved by a majority of elite boxers that necessarily bunch both Mayweather and Marquez together.

Styles (NOT labels) make fights, and Marquez and Mayweather are nearly night and day when it comes to applying their craft.
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well thought out post.

u thought dlh beat floyd?

Bogotazo · May 2, 2012

daprofessor said: ↑

well thought out post.

u thought dlh beat floyd?
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Thanks! And no, I thought Floyd won clearly.

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Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

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Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

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