Did Roy Jones start losing at LHW when his competition stepped up?

Joe.Boxer, I'm betting that you didn't even read all of my waffle? Most of the so called waffle, is actually factual information but never mind. You'd probably get a head ache reading all of that. You don't want to debate anything I've written? It's just all waffle right?

You slag off my post, but can't come up with anything other than a one line insult? Oh dear!

 

[url]http://lightsout10.tripod.com/toney_biography.htm[/url]



Roy gets credit for his 'great' win over Toney, yet Tarver gets little to no credit for sparking a (practically) undefeated, P4P ranked Roy out in the 2nd round.

No-one is denying that Roy was a world class fighter, the issue is that his legacy is grossly overrated by many. His abilities are also overrated, as Headbanger pointed out, Roy tested positive for steroids in random testing, after his fight with Richard Hall. Now why would such a great fighter in his prime, start taking steroids for a fight with Richard Hall!? The logical explanation is that he was cheating and abusing anabolic steroids throughout his career. Once again, as Headbanger pointed out, in elite sports where margins are so fine, when a world class boxer is using PED's to gain an advantage, it can make a massive difference. Having additional strength, speed and stamina to go with your current skillset can elevate any top level fighter. Roy's boxing skill are grossly overrated, as has been evidenced when hasn't had his speed and reflexes to rely on, his lack of fundamentals have been exposed in fights against the likes of Johnson and Calzaghe, where he got dominated and KTFO.

 

The fact that Toney didnt do a tonne at SWM and LHW doesnt mean ****.

Hes still James Toney. Basically you're saying Toney was an incredible MW and cruiserweight yet was a xcrap fighter at SMW and LHW??

Get the **** of my kitchen!

Griffen was a fine fighter and Jones took him out early in the re-match and it was an incredible performance.

Clinton Woods was a fine LHW and Jones dismantled him.

Jones got old, jumped around divisions,and eventually he was got to. Once he was KO'd his confidence went.

In his career,he beat Hopkins,Toney,Griffin, McCallum,Hill,Reggie, Johnson, Woods, Gonzalez, Ruiz and Tarver.

Also c ompare Hills loss to Jones to his fight with Michaelchewski. Hill gave Dariusz all he could handle whereas Roy beat the guy up round after round.
His standard of opposition didnt just suddenly get better.

 

knockout,

where do I begin? The circumstances between Roy's fight with Toney, and his fight with Tarver are completely different.

James Toney was 26 years old, Roy was 25. As i've already stated in my other post, Why did Toney agree to the fight at that point? Why at 26, was he so out of shape? He thought he had enough time to lose the weight, but he didnt. What can Roy do about that. Everything is signed, they both go into camp, and then Toney thinks, hang on, this is going to be much harder than I originally thought. What could Roy do about that?

I know that James wasn't a hundred per cent fit. But what could Roy do? Why didn't the biggest mouth in Boxing want a rematch up at 175? He never ever talked about wanting a rematch with Roy, at any point of his career, not even in 2003 when Roy was at heavy.

Jones seemed to fight a safe cautious fight? And? What do you want him to do? James is a master technition. A boring fight? In who's opinion? Yours? James can only blame himself for the condition he was in. And if he thought he could have beaten Roy at a hundred per cent, he would have wanted a rematch. He didn't, so what does that tell you?

The logical explination is that Roy was roiding his whole career? According to you and Headbanger. That's your opinion. You think he was, I don't! Roy had huge stamina problems his whole career.Even from 94 onwards. Headbanger says he took them from the start of his career until 2000. They didn't help him with his stamina for those 5 = years did they? And if according to Headbanger, he's only fought bums his whole career, why did he need them? He did ok between Hall and Ruiz didn't he, before he came back from heavyweight.

Now to Tarver. We are going around in circles here. Whether you have sympathy for Roy or not, the sudden weight losss of over 20 pounds of muscle, that's muscle not fat in just 8 months finished Roy has a fighter. If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, just do a bit of research if you've got five or ten mins. He burnt all of his muscle fibres and it drained his whole body. There's scientific evidence that you can look at. I think there's even some footage on youtube somewhere of doctors discussing it. I'll have a look later.

Now I'm assuming you saw the fight? You saw the interview before the fight? He looks tired and after the 8th round he'd nothing left in the tank. That was down to the weight loss and nothing else. You can say that's his own fault, fair enough, but to me it's a cold hard fact of why he had nothing left and went onto lose to Johnson. I'll ask you the same question as what I asked Headbanger? If he'd have fought Johnson pre Ruiz, do you think Johnson would have won 9 rounds and then knocked him out?

Come on man! Of course he wouldn't have, and you and everybody knows it. Everybody could see the dramatic change in Roy during the First Tarver Fight. Why would Tarver get a lot of credit for that Knockout of Roy when he'd lost all the muscle, was 35 and had 50 fights? Johnson doesn't get any credit for knocking him out either. Why? Because everuone knows that Roy would have schooled Glen johnson before the weight loss. Roy didn't have great fundamentals, I agree with you, but Roy at his best beats any version of Calzaghe or Johnson.

What's with all of the Cazaghe references on here? He dominated a near 40 year old fighter, four years after he'd been knocked out twice. So what? Just a year later Danny Green knocked him out ina round. Don't see how any of that is relevant.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. At the time It was a huge shock! Nobody could believe it. But then just 4 months later he's knocked out again By Johnson. Roy looked fine physically, but in the first Tarver fight he was done after the 8th. It was obvious after the fight, that they would be a demand for the rematch. I was hoping Roy would take a long lay off and have another fight first.

I'm not going to lie, and say I knew Roy was going to get knocked out in the rematch, but I honestly didn't fancy his chances. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose, and he hadn't looked his normal self 6 months earlier when they fought. When we look back now, it wasn't as shocking as we first thought was it? Like I say at the time it was a huge shock, but after the Johnson defeat? What other explination was there?

He lost 9 rounds to Johnson and then was knocked cold. He was like robot against Johnson. He had no speed, reflexes or nothing. Johnson was hitting him all night long at will. Now as I keep saying, Pre Ruiz, Johnson would have been lucky to win a round. You know that Johnson doesn't get any credit for that win, because everyone knows that had they met pre Ruiz, it would have been an easy nights work for Roy. I don't see how anyone could dispute that?

 

Nunn was still a top fighter in 96. He looked a lot like his old self during the Scully fight

He was Jones mando which is why Jones should of given him a shot. HBO were unhappy with Jones for refusing to take the fight. You have to understand that when Jones contacted Calzaghe in 2007 for a fight he was asking for the same chance he refused to give Nunn

Roy didnt respect Nunn. If he did he wouldnt of demanded 80% of the purse and then refused to fight him when he became his mandotory again.

Nunn was in limbo for 3 years waiting for a fight which would never come. In 2002 Jones used the elimination bout clause to get rid of him. After waiting for 3 years for a shot Nunn was told he had to fight green woods to prove he was worthy of a shot against Jones - Nunn at that point had had enough and pulled out of the woods fight. The wbc then bumped woods up to the no 1 spot and Jones fought him. Its after that fight that HBO turned against him and would eventually cancel his contract after Tarver II

 

steroid testing in american boxing matches was not mandatory until 2 years after jones was caught, the indiana state issued a pilot scheme and jones was caught out big time. why the WBA and WBC didn't react is not for me to say but it does suggest a cover up job. what the WBC and WBA did is a disgrace to boxing, maybe they didn't want to lay the law down when steroid testing wasn't even mandatory at the time, maybe the fact that roy purposely refused twice to give a 2nd sample ment that jones could never be nailed down properly. the WBA and WBC basically swept jones anabolic steroid test under the carpet and roy left the indiana state a little charitable donation, how conveniant.

of course he avoided another test because he was guilty, doesn't matter about what you, the media or anyone else think, the indiana state requested he give another sample and roy refused the indiana state, that is the action of someone who is hiding something. jacob hall did not wait 5 months to request a futher sample, he requested it within 4 weeks of the hall fight, it was the IBF who took 5 months to request that roy took another test which is absolutely disgracefull.

thats one way of looking it, the other way of looking at it is that jones offered a bribe to further sweep it under the carpet. i know if i fought in a us state and was innocent but my test showed up that i had 6 times the normal level of testosterone in my body, i would not hesitate to have a 2nd test to clear my name. your views on this kind of thing are fanboyism of the worst possible kind. roy jones is commonly thought of as proven drugs cheat in boxing and he did nothing to try and clear his name.

of course he wasn't, he was already a proven banned anabolic steroids user, why would he ever risk it again and be called a proven multiple juicer, especially after the cover up operation the 1st time left fanboys and gullable boxing fans thinking that he didn't even take baned anabolic steroids the 1st time atsch

what the **** are you on? atsch
are you seriously denying that taking banned anabolic steroids wouldn't allow a boxer to improve his speed, recovery, power, and fitness in a sustained training programme?
I cannot respect anything you say or even discuss any of roys opponents untill you stop pretending that a boxer taking anabolic steroids is a trivial matter.

how could there be proof that jones was on anabolic steroids before 2000 when american boxing didn't begin testing for anabolic steroids before 2002?

its an absolute irrefutable fact that the 1st time roy was tested in his professional career for banned anabolic steroids, he failed the test and was found to have 6 times the acceptable level of testerone in his body.

now why would roy suddenly start juicing to fight richard hall? what was special about richard hall that roy thought that he needed to have 6 times the acceptable level of testerone in his body to fight him? there was no reason because richard hall was the definition of average. is it that unthinkable to conclude that roy was taking banned anabolic steroids before this because there was never any tests to catch him before he was caught against hall in 2000? there is simply no way that roy deemed hall special enough to suddenly think he had to start juicing to beat him.

 

Nunn was a top fighter, but in the mid 90's, I don't think he was. He looked like his old self against Scully? Who's Scully? That's the level of fighters he was boxing at the time. He lost Rochigianni and Roy didn't want to fight him, and you have a problem with that why?

I know he asked Joe for a shot. But he was nearly 40 and Joe wanted to bow out of boxing on a name. When your pound for pound no.1 you can dictate more. I wish Roy had've fought him earlier, but not in the mid 90's/early 2000's The fight then would have been a waste of time in my opinion. Roy can ask for a ridiculous high percentage. How much of the purse would Micheal have wanted, if he had all the belts and Roy had lost to guys like Rochigianni and was fighting Scully type opposition?

Nunn was in limbo for 3 years? Couldn't he get a fight with the other high ranking light heavy weights at the time. I get what your saying, but I just don't think Roy saw it as a challenge. Same with Collins. At the time Steve brought nothing to the table. I know for a fact that Roy didn't want to fight Woods at the time, but was threatened with having one of his belts stripped if he didn't take the fight. I saw that in an interview. It was the same with Frazier or Hall.

Why didn't Nunn fight Woods? I find it hard to believe that Nunn couldn't get a fight with any of the other top light heavies. But if he'd have still been in top shape, he'd have beaten Rochigianni. The early Micheal Nunn certainly would have. The only reason HBO cancelled his contract, is because he suffered back to back knockout defeats and wasn't the fighter that he once was.

No big network covered his comeback fights against Ajamu and Hanshaw, but HBO covered the Trinidad and Calzaghe fight.But I agree that Roy didn't want to fight Nunn. But not because he was threatened by him, but because he thought he wasn't the fighter that je once was, and he just wasn't intersted.

Like I say, he wouldn't fight Steve Collins. He had absolutely no motivation or intention of fighting him. But he didn't duck him out of fear, he just didn't bring anything to the table.

 

Roid Jones is a Glass Jawed Joke and a disgrace to Boxing. His entire career was nothing but a dog-and-pony show based on skillful matchmaking and smoke and mirrors.

 

Don't listen to head giver look how he put in bold that Roy tested 6 times above the legal limit for a banned substance but failed to mention that his opponent tested 10 TIMES above the legal limit ..Its all a witch hunt with these fools ..

 

why would i need to say that, hall is a ****in disgrace for failing the test but he is a nobody, this thread is about roy jones. nobody is condoning richard hall.

 

Head, this is going to go forever!

Right I've finally got the answer I've been looking for. You think that all of the other Bodies are all corrupt and disgraceful and swept the whole episode under the carpet? That's what you think, then fine. But I don't beleive it.

It's all opinions. You think Roy refused the second test because he'd got something to hide. That's your opinion. Mine is, he didn't take the allegations very seriously at all. Who says Roy is commonly known has a drugs cheat? I've only heard a handful of people state that. Is everybody else a blind fanboy like me?

But you or me aren't in Roy's shoes are we? So you think Hall could have took a bribe then? You're saying he definately wasn't on roids after Hall, because he wouldn't be stupid enough? Right, that's why I asked you the questions I did. You're implying that on Roids, Roy was great and when he didn't take them he eventually lost. You won't even take into consideration his dramatic weight loss or his age etc.

So we're both clear that he didn't take them for Harding, Gonzalez, Woods and Ruiz? You're saying he beat them fighters clean aren't you? I'm saying they're not bad fighters. None of them are hall of famers obviously, but they're pretty decent fighters. All you can give as an explination for Roy's victories against them is, that they're all completely garbage, and that's why he could beat them clean.

You're stating that Sterioids would help Roy with his speed and fitness etc. You're saying that's a fact. I'm not arguing with you, I'm asking you two questions 1. If everyone who Roy fought was a bum, why do you think he did take them in your opinion if he did? 2. Why if Roy was on roids, did he have serious stamina problems? Even in his mid 20's he used to back onto the ropes for a breather. It's a serious question. They didn't help did they?

You're saying that before 2002 boxers couldn't be tested right? That's fair enough. But you're saying that Roy was juicing is whole life but he didn't get caught until 2000! I'm saying that you have no proof that Roy was taking anything before Hall. It's all hearsay and opinions.

how could there be proof that jones was on anabolic steroids before 2000 when american boxing didn't begin testing for anabolic steroids before 2002?
So there's no proof either way. You think he did but he got away with it because they were no tests in place. That's your opinion that's all, it doesn't mean that your right does it. You could accuse anyone who you wanted to. You could say Ray leonard had been juicing is whole career.

I could then say How the **** do you know? He's never been caught? You could say, yeah but that's because there wasn't testing in those days. It's all about opinion. Do really think that 3 major organisations are a complete disgrace to Boxing and every single one of them was happy to sweep it under the carpet.

But lets put it to bed now. You've got your opinion and I've got mine. I don't agree with your opinion but I respect it. But what makes me mad is when you make ridiculous claims, such as, Harding Ruiz etc were appalling and he could beat them clean. It's insane! We know Ruiz wasn't a 1964 Ali, but he was a huge win considering the circumstances. The added weight, still being outweighed by 20 pounds etc, etc. You dismiss it as a nothing win, just because you don't lijke Roy. It makes you sound ridiculous.

Have a good weekend, and I mean that mate.

Regards Loudon.

 

Metal, Haha! I've been wondering where you've been. Seriously man, you crack me up! Haha!