Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

"quality of opposition is FAR more important"

But quality of opposition, in fairness, it NOT determined by either size or age. Why are "old" fighters often champions? The obvious answer is that they are better than the young fighters. An "old" great fighter is often better than a prime younger fighter. Who is Gene Fullmer's best scalp? My guess is that most would say Robinson, even though he was old.

Size is even more questionable as a criterion. Let's look at Joe Louis. Off Boxrec, Louis had 18 fights against fighters weighing over 200 lbs. He went 18-0 with 15 knockouts. I don't think he came close to losing any of them, except arguably Godoy, although he suffered flash knockdowns against Galento and Buddy Baer.

Against fighters under 190 lbs, Louis had 27 fights. He went 25-2 with 17 ko's. Besides losing outright to Charles and Marciano, he had scares against Adolph Wiater, Bob Pastor, Billy Conn, etc. The third man to defeat Louis, Max Schmeling, weighed 192.

I think the evidence is strong that Louis had more trouble from smaller than larger men.

So did Marciano. He was 24-0 with 23 ko's against men over 190 lbs. The only over 190 lb man to last against Marciano was the mediocre Red Applegate, indicating his survival was due more to catching Marciano on an off night than to his size.

I think the same can be said of Dempsey, who had less trouble from Willard or Fulton than from Miske, Gibbons, or Tunney.

Most of the better heavyweights of the pre-1960 era were under 200 lbs, or even in the 170 to 190 lb class.

 

Ron Lyle is a tough man and a hard hitting heavyweight and he had Foreman all but out. Is Jeff just a little better than Lyle in any of the technical aspects of boxing? Now Jim Jeffries is rated as a very tough man himself, and very likely as strong as Ron Lyle. I think most unbiased people would have to say so. Would that make the little bit of difference needed to get big George out of there? I'm not sure...
I lean toward George's offense being able to inflict enough damage to batter Jeff in the early and middle rounds so that Jeff can't mount a late charge. But if you don't give Jeff at least a punchers chance I think you are selling him short my friend.

 

And Jeffries?

1--I think a rather slippery argument is being used to praise Foreman's size while criticizing Jeff's by focusing on the weight gaps between Jeff and his opposition. No doubt Jeff was big, but he would have been big at any time, even in the seventies. As his weight was often close to 220 lbs in top shape, lets see what the gap in weight would have been against these champions on the day they won the title:

Johnson (24 lbs)--Dempsey (33 lbs), Tunney (31 lbs), Louis (23 lbs), Charles (39 lbs), Walcott (26 lbs), Marciano (36 lbs), Patterson (38 lbs), Johansson (24 lbs)

Even the big guys of the post 1960 era would have had to give away weight--
Liston (6 lbs), Ali (10 lbs), Frazier (fotc 15 lbs), Foreman (3 lbs), Holmes (11 lbs)

Of the earlier "giants", even Max Baer (11 lbs) was smaller. Only Willard and Carnera had size on Jeffries. Most of Jeff's opposition, except for Fitz and Choynski, fell within the 180 to 200lb range like the best of the other champions' opposition in the pre-1960 era.

And Foreman? He did fight bigger opponents, but two factors are being overlooked here. He lost to Holyfield (208lbs-the exact same weight as Johnson), Young (213 lbs), and Ali (216 lbs). Jeff would have been bigger than these men, so he certainly had the size to potentially defeat Foreman.

It is also possible that fighting in an era of bigger opponents might have worked to Foreman's advantage. Ali and Young and Peralta showed that slicker boxers could last with the young Foreman. Tommy Morrison, certainly no great boxer, showed that the old Foreman was vulnerable to anyone who could keep moving. The smaller pre-1960 fighters would have been far more likely to be able to keep moving. I think the "old" Corbett of the 1900 Jeffries fight might well have outspeeded the "old" Foreman easily. Lugging all that extra flab about might have even proven a disadvantage against an agile opponent in a long distance fight. The lack of stamina of the young Foreman might also have given him real problems if he couldn't catch the faster moving pre-1960 fighters quickly.

My bottom line is I have doubts about Foreman being able to dominate any pre-1960 era in the way Jeffries did his era. The slicksters would have gotten him. The main reason I take Foreman over Jeff is that Jeff seems to be the wrong type to deal with Foreman. George would probably have gotten more trouble from Corbett.

 

There might have been a deeper talent pool, but how many did Foreman fight and defeat?

It is possible that Foreman has the most padded record of them all.

If one lists the top fighters of the 1970 to 2000 era, what is noteworthy is how few Foreman defeated.

1970's--He defeated Frazier, but lost to Ali and did not fight Holmes.

1980's--Did not fight Holmes, Michael Spinks, or Tyson.

1990's--Lost to Holyfield, and did not fight Lewis, Bowe, or Tyson.

*other than Frazier, his best victories were over men I would consider good, but second-stringers-Norton, Lyle, Moorer--these are somewhat concelled out by his losses to Young and Morrison.

The rest are guys who were just not that topflight and/or past their best--Chuvalo, Cooney, Qawi, etc.

 

"The only man"

Well, I seem to remember watching Foreman lose badly to one Jimmy Young, a skilled but feather-punching heavyweight whose career record was an unimposing 34-19-2.

 

"which hw jeffries ever beat to convince people he could beat Foreman?"

None.

"which hw Foreman lost to to convince people he could lose to Jeffries."

Young and Morrison.

Young looked good against aging opponents-Ali, Lyle, Norton--but his overall spotty record does raise questions as he defeated a prime Foreman.

Those who claim any version of Foreman would be too much for any version of Jeffries should be given some pause by his woeful performances against Morrison and Shultz.

 

I think where I differ from others here is that I rate Foreman a bit less highly.

1--Foreman is the greatest puncher of them all? Well, he looked good ko'ing Frazier, but Joe had been put down when young by Bonavena and staggered by the old Machen and Ramos. Joe didn't fight that many big hitters.

2--the other major Foreman victims--Norton, Lyle, Cooney, Moorer--were stopped by others at about the same time.

3--Most of the durable guys Foreman faced--Ali, Young, Holyfield--lasted. Chuvalo was stopped by the ref's intervention, but off the film I tend to support Chuvalo's claim that he was avoiding Foreman's "coming in the window" wide shots. I can't argue that the ref was wrong in stopping it, but Chuvalo was never off his feet and not in as deep trouble as it might have appeared. Anyway, I think Chuvalo was well past his best.

Bottom line, I have doubts that Foreman was really quite the overpowering puncher he is often portrayed as.

His overall ko record is heavily padded.

 

Since you used the weights each man weighed when he won the title, why did you not use the weight Jeffries scaled when he won the title?

It was 206lbs ,which is lighter than all of those you mentioned except Frazier who was a mere .5 of a lb lighter.

Foreman was 217.5lbs and 250lbs.
Ali 216.5lbs,221lbs,and 210.5lbs
Frazier [FOTC], 205.5lbs.
Baer 209.5lbs.
Holmes 209lbs.



The average weight of Jeffries challengers was 186lbs


Foreman lost to Holyfield ? Yes he did , did you forget he was 42 years old?


How does Jeffries do against Holyfield at the age of 42?

We allready know how he did against Johnson when he was 35.

How does a 44 years old Jeffries do against Tommy Morrison.

How does Jeffries do against a technically adept, defensive fighter , like Jimmy Young who has 30lbs on the Corbett who ran rings around Jeffries at the age of 33?

Foreman lost to a 32years old Ali? Does Jeffries do better?

The referee gave Peralta ONE ROUND against Foreman .

Peralta was in his 91st fight, Foreman his 16th, in 116 fights Peralta was only stopped 3 times , one of them on a cut eye ,of the other two ,Foreman was the only one to stop him when he was a heavyweight.

Peralta 197lbs , had just drawn with Oscar Bonavena and was rated no 10

I say he would very likely go 10rounds with Jeffries,especially as he twice went 10rds with Ron Lyle ,losing a decision when he was 38, and drawing with Lyle when he was 39years old.

Going 10 rounds with Foreman is a bit different to going 20 rounds with Jeffries is it not?


Choynski, Sharkey and Corbett showed that 167lbs,177lbs and 183lbs men could go 20 rounds or more with Jeffries and be very competitive.

Foreman's lightest opponent was Sylvester Dullaire at185.5lbs , it was Foreman's third fight ,Dullaire lasted 2min 59 seconds.

In conclusion ,if anyone is presenting a slippery argument here ,I think it's yourself.

 

Foreman has a near 84% ko record, 34 of his 81 fights occurred when he was past 40 years old.:huh

Left jabs were thudding into George's face, hooks ,and crosses were landing with full impact.
Foreman was beating the living **** out of Chuvalo, it was a timely stoppage by a great referee.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2KRcH1N-xY[/ame]

Chuvalo was 33 years old, and had won his last 6 fights ,all by ko.
In fact he had only lost 2 fights in the last 3 years.:huh
Foreman was just 21years old.

 

From young's robbery draw to shavers up until his loss to norton, he was an elite level fighter who deserved to beat both ali and foreman.

If you're going to have the audacity to bring up foreman's loss to morrison, I have to say that jeffries was made to be johnson's ***** in reno and 90's foreman would push the bitches **** in.

 

I just can't take this match-up seriously. One guy went life and death with middleweights despite having enormous physical advantages. What would young Foreman have done against Jeffries' line-up of opponents? Can you see him having problems with old Corbett, or that dockworker Sharkey, or liver-spotted, ancient Fitzsimmons?

 

I'm gonna be controversial, & say give him a time machine & Foreman could've went pro in 1895 like Jeffries & went undefeated for the full 28 year span of his career. Proved he still gets the 10 year preaching layoff for rest, & only has to fight 81 times.

 

XPERT-post m8. :thumbsup