Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

It is also a matter of record that Yank Durham called Ali after he signed to fight Bonavena and pretty much screamed at him that he was taking too big a risk and could potentially ruin the upcoming fight with his fighter, Joe Frazier.

I seriously doubt that Durham would have made that call had it been Chuvalo whom Ali had signed to fight. Just a hunch

 

Roy Jones spent his prime fighting mostly easy marks on HBO or Showtime for millions of dollars, guys that weighed 160 - 180 pounds, over-blown welters like Pazienza, and several men of dubious quality.
For big money.

If Fitzsimmons was fighting in the 1990s he would have probably done the same thing, stayed at 154 - 168 pounds, for big money. Maybe even welterweight.

Now, the fact that the heavyweights of the 1990s are bigger and better than in the 1890s is only half of the equation.
The other half is that talented smaller men can have huge careers and become extremely rich without taking on anyone bigger than themselves.


If the only way Roy Jones could have made real money was by campaigning at heavyweight, he probably would have been up there in his prime and it is not unlikely that he could knocked out a few of the men who were ranked in the 1990s.

 

Which proves what ? Bonavena was better than Chuvalo.
Ok.

The point is, Foreman looked good beating Chuvalo (a ranked contender) in 1970, he actually looks as good there as any other fight, IMO.
So if he OBVIOUSLY wasn't good enough to beat Bonavena in 1970, he was probably never good enough.

'No ebook available'

 

Jones did in fact invade the heavyweights and defeat John Ruiz while being only a lightheavy in size.

 

"where have these lightheavies and middles who once ruled the division , mind you not created a small blip, but RULED the division."

1--middles ruled the division consistently? Lightheavies did? Most of the old champions fell into the 180 to 200 lb class. More were heavier than lighter. I think only Fitz and Burns were real lightheavies at the time they were champions. If you want to claim Fitz as a middle, all right, but he was exceptional. In fact, I think unique.

2--And the lightheavies and "middles" have been in the last 30 years about as successful as they ever were.

A--Michael Spinks-on 6/6/1985 Spinks weighs 175 in a lightheavy title bout. On 9/21/85 he defeats the 221 lb Larry Holmes to win the heavy title.

B--Chris Byrd-was always basically a lightheavy. Byrd was 6' tall, shorter than many lightheavy champs and about the same height as Fitz. At 23 years of age, a fully grown adult, he weighed 169 & 171 lbs for fights, about the same weight as Fitz. At 24, he weighed well over 200 lbs. He fought for years between 210 and 220, defeating the likes of the 244 lb Vitali Klitschko and the 270 lb Jameel McCline. At 38, he was back to 174 lbs for a fight.

C--Roy Jones--defeated John Ruiz, one of the top heavies of the era.

D--James Toney--at 24 made the middle limit. At 28 made the lightheavy limit. Eventually moved into superheavy class. Defeated Holyfield and drew with Hasim Rahman.

The difference between these men and the older middles and lightheavies?

Needles--They probably would look like a pincushion if we could see all the needles they got stuck with for HGH, steroids, and who knows what else. Their bodies were bloated chemically in a way that a fighter generations ago was not. A glance at dimensions shows these were not big men. Byrd was quite a bit shorter than Conn. Toney and Jones were shorter than Fitz.

*If these men went back to 1900, they would have been in the same size class as Fitz. Skills have also evolved, and that is a more valid basis of criticism of the oldtimers. But crediting moderns on size without nuance is sort of like crediting a modern general like Custer as being a better general than Alexander the Great because Custer's men had guns.

 

In 1970 Chuvalo had 8 fights, winning 7, all by ko , his only loss was to Foreman .
Chuvalo had kod Jerry Quarry in 7 rds, 8 months prior to losing to Foreman. Chuvalo was rated in the top ten of the Rings ratings,[ no 7 ,] and had been rated in the top 10 for 5 of the 7 years previous to that.:huh

 

Again, I asked when did the last lightheavy POWERPUNCHER invade and control the heavyweight division. Not when did a slick, boxing-type go after low-hanging fruit beltholder and immediately retreat into retirement or get KO'd by the next primed heavy who came along. Byrd, slick, evasive, but not a powerpuncher by any measure, came closest. Toney beat an old, eternally hot-and-cold Holy, while juiced to the gills. He could not even beat the crudest contender in Peters and clearly lost to Oquendo The second fight he had no answers for Peters' physicality, power and size.

 

[quote=mcvey;12461616]In 1970 Chuvalo had 8 fights, winning 7, all by ko , his only loss was to Foreman .

A simple look at the quality of opposition explains that. Looks like the two Georges had more in common than just first names, huh?


Chuvalo had kod Jerry Quarry in 7 rds, 8 months prior to losing to Foreman.

I think you, me and everyone else here are fully aware of what happened there. There have been threads devoted to this and it's pretty much agreed that if this doesn't define a "fluke" win then nothing does. Quarry's stupid mistake beat Quarry. He beats Chuvalo every day of the week otherwise.


Chuvalo was rated in the top ten of the Rings ratings,[ no 7 ,] and had been rated in the top 10 for 5 of the 7 years previous to that.:huh

More by default than merit. Chuvalo seemed content to sit back and let the real top contenders knock each other off while he fed on a steady diet of second and third raters. Take a look at those he beat in between the Frazier loss in 1967 and the Foreman loss in 1970. Other than the Quarry fluke he really didn't do all that much. How many wins over top contenders can be counted there (and let's not mention Ramos, who wasn't worth a darn after Frazier destroyed him 3 months earlier)?

 

Did Fitzsimmons control the heavyweight division ?
He sprang a come-from-behind KO win over Corbett, and then lost the title in his first defence to a proper heavyweight (Jeffries), and failed to beat him again in an attempt to win back the title.

Michael Moorer and Michael Spinks fit the description "light-heavyweight powerpunchers".

 

Unlike in Jeffries era, there were no consistent, prime, bigger heavyweights to keep the title out of their reach.

 

Whatever way you slice it, the young Foreman did a lot better against Chuvalo than Quarry did.

 

As you know he also beat Tom Sharkey, Peter Maher, Gus Ruhlin and Joe Choynski in addition to Corbett. That's a veritable "who's-who" of top ranking heavyweights of the era.