Dempsey's take on the non-fight with Wills

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Apr 6, 2012.


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  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    As I said. I wouldn't pick on the fight.

    Good point.

    He walked into a counter and got hurt. He still dominated firpo.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 8, 2012
    lufcrazy, Apr 8, 2012
    #151
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, that's the fight nicely summarised.

    But what i'm saying isn't even really related to Firpo. When a considerably smaller fighter consistently demands dogfights of bigger opponents, he's likely destined to run into something nightmarish sooner or later. It happened to Frazier, Tyson, Armstrong, McGovern, Hatton, you name them.

    Of course, Dempsey was special. But I don't think he was more special than all of the above.
     
    McGrain, Apr 8, 2012
    McGrain, Apr 8, 2012
    #152
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Never happened to greb, never even happened to khaosai galaxy :lol:

    Seriously though I think calling these styles dogfights is wrong.

    Hatton aside, the guys you list are reknowned for world class defensive skills and rarely got hit in their prime.

    Frazier walked into the most offensively great hw in history imo.

    You could argue the rest burnt out.

    Dempsey didn't nor wouldn't have burnt out. It's a stretch to call wills offensively great.

    Without footage I can't even begin to discuss the fight possibility.

    Jack never fought anyone like wills. Your guess is as good as anyone's.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 8, 2012
    lufcrazy, Apr 8, 2012
    #153
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Actually, I thin it did happen to Greb, against Kid Norfolk. But it's debatable.

    Dogfight is just to mean a test of punching and chin rather than boxing away like the smaller man is expected to do. Smaller men tend to come a cropper sooner or later if they are violently attacking larger opponents.
     
    McGrain, Apr 8, 2012
    McGrain, Apr 8, 2012
    #154
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Very debatable indeed.

    That's kinda my point, they weren't testing their chin so much as relying on split second reflexes to get under the incoming punch and close distance. Then it's a matter of physics dictating that shorter, quicker hands should land more.

    I wish we had prime footage of wills :-( based on writeups, are you confident enough in knowing his style and attributes?
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 8, 2012
    lufcrazy, Apr 8, 2012
    #155
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No. I've never felt confident in this regard with Wills like I am with someone like Jack Dempsey (middleweight) or Tommy Ryan. I think he was more mobile generally than he gets credit for but I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess at what his best punches were. My best guess is that he fought tall as a pot-shotter, essentially a counter-puncher (maybe a bit like Morales?) but excelled at controlling his man inside with outstanding grappling and infighting skills. But i'd be ready to let that go in a heartbeat for the right analysis.

    He definitely wasn't a technician I don't think.
     
    McGrain, Apr 8, 2012
    McGrain, Apr 8, 2012
    #156
  7. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "I don't believe in conspiracy theories"

    The issue isn't conspiracy, it is insincerity.

    There was no conspiracy involved when Hitler signed the Munich Pact and promised not to claim any other European territory.

    Was he sincere though?

    If signing a piece of paper convinces you of sincerity, so be it.

    But the constant promises of giving Wills a shot from 1922 on, promises which one and all came to nothing, raise a lot of doubt in my mind of the sincerity of signing a scrap of paper which in the event also came to nothing.

    If you charge me with cynicism, I plead guilty. I have lived too long and seen too much to take charades at face value.

    It is results alone which impress me.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 8, 2012
    edward morbius, Apr 8, 2012
    #157
  8. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Do you have any evidence that jack wasn't being sincere?
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 9, 2012
    lufcrazy, Apr 9, 2012
    #158
  9. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Kevin Smith posted years ago that there was an escape clause in this contract. It had to be approved by Dempsey's lawyer.

    Smith was convinced that this whole signing bit was a charade, and he implied (I don't remember if he stated directly) that he had read the contract.

    *Certainly such a very visible signing for a fight which never was justifies cynicism, especially for one familiar with the newspaper stories about a Dempsey-Wills fight being about to come off from 1922 on.

    Rickard himself announced in the summer of 1924 that the two would fight in September of 1924. This changed to Wills and Firpo fighting an elimination, and then to Wills not winning impressively enough (although he seems to have taken every round) to be matched with Dempsey.

    **Paying money to Wills rather than Dempsey is suspicious. It is the champion you have to get on board to have a championship match.

    ***Do I have "proof" Dempsey was insincere. No. But I don't have "proof" Hitler was insincere when he signed the Munich Pact either. I would just draw that conclusion.

    ****Bottom line for me--the very public signing does not convince me that this fight was ever seriously going to come off. Dempsey was a boxer, not a slippery politician. He might have been sincere even if no one else was. We will never know.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    #159
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Basically we both ahve infront of us a glass.

    You are saying it is half empty. I am saying it is half full.

    Anyone of us can be right, but without proof backing up the insincerity of this contract signing I'm not buying into it.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 9, 2012
    lufcrazy, Apr 9, 2012
    #160
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think this comparison is unfair on Hitler, who ducked nobody.
     
    McGrain, Apr 9, 2012
    McGrain, Apr 9, 2012
    #161
  12. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Fair enough. But given the fact that this fight almost immediately fell through, I am not buying into accepting this public signing at face level.

    I have grown cynical as I have grown old.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    #162
  13. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    One great thing about this board is that fans always stick up for their man.




    **That was a joke. Please don't take it seriously.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    #163
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    It immediately fell through because it had a 60 day clause.

    The two teams had 2 months to find a venue and promoter to make the fight a reality. Due to political pressure this never became close to happening.

    Once the 60 days were up the two move on until they began discussions again a year or so later.
     
    lufcrazy, Apr 9, 2012
    lufcrazy, Apr 9, 2012
    #164
  15. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    And they didn't anticipate that sort of political pressure?

    It would have been more logical to feel out a governor and state legislature first before signing.
     
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    edward morbius, Apr 9, 2012
    #165
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