Calzaghe vs RJJ's resume

Roy fought a canny few unworthy opponents throughout his career but his resume is still a lot better than Joes. A lot better!

 

You're saying you established this?? :rofl
Read back through the thread, I already stated that! You denied it at first, then agreed. Once again, read back through the thread.

I originally stated

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12544844&postcount=31[/url]


Then you stated

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12544977&postcount=35[/url]

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12545158&postcount=38[/url]

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12545480&postcount=43[/url]


At least I made you see some sense there :good

Tyson was shot to **** when he fought Williams and McBride. Jones wasn't a shot fighter when he faced Tarver and Johnson.

:roflatsch


There's a difference between being TKO'd like Ali was against a prime Larry Holmes, after sustaining a heavy beating for 10 rounds, and being knocked into a mini-coma by Glen Johnson! Oscar took the beating, and was pulled out by his corner, he could still have fought on. It's nothing like Roy being stopped by a single punch from Tarver, and being KTFO by Johnson. That's an awful argument.

You cannot compare those stoppages at all!

Norris dropped Leonard a few times, but as SRL was an iron chinned warrior, he took that beating like a man and saw the final bell, he didn't get KO'd, he got UD'd.

That wasn't your point Roy was by no means a shot fighter when he faced Tarver or Johnson, we've been over this. Roy had the tools to beat both of those guys, but as always against a half decent opponent, Jones was completely afraid to engage. This time, Johnson and Tarver put pressure on Roy like never before, and he folded like a deck chair.

A bit of both, sometimes the truth, often you chat ****

atsch I think you need to re-read my post.

Not at all.

Shits all over Calzaghe's? Not a chance. You can argue it's better, you may have a point, but no way it shits all over JC's.

Not a chance, Jones never had a chin, and never had a plan B.

I think you can put Calzaghe into the top 100.

That's a point, Joe should have taken the Pavlik fight, he would have schooled KP. I think Joe had one decent fight left in him.

Calzaghe had a chance to prove he a legend by beating Dawson, Calzaghe decline.

Did Roy duck a Hopkins rematch?

Calzaghe beat Hopkins, and would have beaten that version of Toney that Roy fought. We don't know about Ruiz, as we don't know how well Joe's body would take the weight. At 34 years old, Joe beat Kessler, Roy Jones got KTFO by Glen Johnson :deal

Not really, Ruiz like Valuev was crap! Haye gave away 100 pounds, Roy gave away 30. Ruiz is slow, plodding and featherfisted. He was tailor made for Jones, the only advantage was that he outweighed Jones, and I already put that into perspective!

 

I think Calzaghe would beat Tarver.

Tarver has a punchers chance, but whenever anyone unloads on him Tarver just covers up.

And we all know Calzaghe's insane workrate was second to None.

Calzaghe would be throwing slaps on Tarver all night and Tarver would be covering up.

But if Tarver hurts Calzaghe, which is possible Tarver would finish Calzaghe off.

Still Calzaghe UD Tarver about 90% chance and Tarver KO Calzaghe 10% IMO

 

Ok you claim you claimed it, I claim I claimed it.

But the point I made still holds true.

Calzaghe never had the power to KO prime RJJ

Yea and I dont judge Tyson in his past prime stages, likewise I dont judge RJJ during his past prime stages.

I aint saying **** like, Calzaghe Pearler would kill RJJ because RJJ got beat by Glen Johnson.

:roflatsch

:huh

What was my argument?
You dont even understand my argument and claim it is awful.

I dont judge a fighter as prime when he is clearly past his prime.

Thats common sense but I have to explain it to you is serious mode.

You are comparing those stoppages, I aint.

I am just giving you examples of not judging post prime fighters as prime.

You think Calzaghe would KO RJJ with a "pearler" atsch because RJJ displayed a glass jaw during his past prime phase.

And now you are agreeing with me, according to chinchecker Logic, SRL is a glass jawed joke.

Thank you for correcting me.

I never called RJJ shot. I said he was past his best when he faced Tarver and Johnson.

Glen Johnson is not an immense fighter, but he managed to beat RJJ in every round and then KO him. That just shows, RJJ was no longer at his best.

A prime RJJ would have atleast won one round.

Tarver and Johnson ****ed RJJ up.

But to say Calzaghe pearlers would do the same is bull****. A prime RJJ was a beast especially a roided up one.

I speak the truth even when I chat ****

No need to slap your head.

RJJ's best wins > Calzaghe's best wins
RJJ best KO wins > Calzaghe best slappage wins

RJJ accomplishments > Calzaghe's accomplishments
RJJ resume > Calzaghe resume

So you think the opposite, Despite RJJ beating more future, former and reigning champs. Despire RJJ beating better opposition and accomplishing better things. You think

Calzaghe > RJJ

man......(Roger Mayweather).....

You dont know **** about baaxin!!

OK maybe it dont **** over JC's from the 100th floor, but it does **** on JC's in the rankings.

JC is a cocaine legend, and has a good resume.

top 10 ATG then?

Regardless former MW, SMW, LHW, and HW champ, he is in the top 50 while calzaghe doesnt make it past Pernell Whitaker.

I be honest here knockout, i aint ever made an ATG list and will make one soon but I can name many fighters from the last 22 years that rank higher than Joe, maybe 20 - 40 fighters of the last 22 years.

If I include the beasts of the 80's, the legends from the 40 - 70's and the old school greats pre 30's I think Joe Calzaghe aint in the top 100.

RJJ though however, he in the top 100 easily.

Calzaghe would have beaten KP, not as badly as Hopkins did, but Calzaghe would have established himself as a ATG with wins over Pavlik and Dawson.

Dawson though I think he is too big for Joe, but can push Dawson to the edge.

I think both were just being too greedy. 60/40 I kick your ass.

Hopkins and RJJ are two great fighters that couldnt split 20 million dollars between then pair of em.

Hopkins was p4p #1 at the time and thought 50/50 was legit. I agree with BHop 50/50 would have been good.

RJJ thought he already has a win over Hops so should get 60/40.

I wont say duck, I would say out priced.

Calzaghe struggle with counter right hands, and Toney is the best fighter of the last 22 years when it comes to counter right hand. Especially from the shoulder roll, its a thing of beauty.

Forget that, do you think Prime Toney vs Prime Calzaghe. Thats a legit discussion.

Calzaghe's slaps at HW would have been on Comedy gold.

No way Calzaghe goes beyond LHW. His slaps would have worsen as he moved up in weight.

And at 34, well before 34 Chris Eubank got beaten up by Carl the cat Thompson.

Dont mean ****.

Roy was a former LMW

Haye was a fromer CW

on que....Roger Mayweather......


.......

 

I think if Glen Johnson could do that to RJJ, I think Calzaghe before his hand problems is capable of stopping RJJ.

To put it into perspective, when Tyson fought Holyfield for the first time, he was past prime, yet I still hold that loss against him and his legacy. I don't hold the Lennox Lewis loss against him though, as by that point he was a shot fighter.

When RJJ got KO'd by Tarver and Johnson, I hold those losses against him. When he got destroyed by Calzaghe, Green and Lebedev, I don't hold those losses against him, as by that point I consider him a shot fighter. I hope that makes sense.

No, he still showed a solid chin, he got up each time and fought on. When have the chincheckers ever said Leonard has a glass jaw?

You tried to compare Roy getting KTFO by Glen Johnson, to Ali against Holmes.

Johnson was leading 77-75 on the scorecards, at the time of the stoppage. Roy could have won that fight, in the fourth round when Johnson stood off, Roy showed he still had his hand speed, and looked sharp when throwing combinations. Glen fought the perfect fight, he wasn't scared of Jones' power, he roughed him up on the inside, and pressured him like never before. Jones was low on confidence, and Johnson assaulted him from the first bell.

Agreed, I don't hold the Calzaghe, Green or Lebedev losses against Jones.

Debatable, Jones' best wins are overrated.

True, but then Calzaghe never got dominated and KTFO by the likes of Tarver and Johnson, even when past his prime.

Jones never beat a single lineal or unified Champion. He never beat the number 1 man in any division he campaigned in. He ducked several legitimate threats during his prime. Throughout his career he carefully navigated his way through weight classes, beating weak champions and picking up paper titles. The belt he won off Ruiz was a title that Lennox Lewis vacated, that was Lennox's belt, Roy never beat Lennox for that belt, it was a paper title. Some Titles he won at LHW were ones that were stripped from DM, he never beat DM for these titles.

Let's see, the opposition was available for Roy to cement his greatness, but he never took the chances. He never got into the ring with the likes of Benn, Mcclellan or DM and others. So it's hard to say, if he beat these fighters then I could rank him very highly!

There's no shame in being ranked behind a great fighter like Pernell Whitaker.

If you do ever find the time to make an ATG list, let me know, I'd be interested in seeing that.

I don't think Joe would have beaten Dawson at that point in his career. Dawson gets slightly underrated because of that loss to Pascal, but I think a bit more time and he would have gotten to JP, the tide had definitely turned in that fight. It's a shame he didn't want to test himself one more time, as I think he would have beaten Pavlik.

Fair point, I wouldn't say Joe ducked Hopkins. He only wanted one more fight, and he wanted an easy payday to retire on against RJJ. Roy still had a name that sold the fight easily, and it was a good payday. If Joe had plenty more fights after Hopkins, and never rematched Hopkins I would call it a duck.

I showed you what I thought of that match up earlier.

If Toney showed up drained, out of shape and ill disciplined as against RJJ, Joe wins hands down.

If Toney showed up at the top of his game, I think he gives Joe a horrible night. Imagine Joe walking onto those counter right hands, and JT had one of the best in the business.

However, Joe beats JT for speed. Toney was often flat footed, and lazy in his work-rate. Joe won't stand in front of him all night like Barkley, he'd box and flurry, throw punches and spin off to the side. This can be difficult to counter.

It's a very hard fight to call, on one night I think Joe can pull it off, however I think if it all comes together for JT, he'll give Joe the most horrible night of his career. What do you think?

He was leading on the score-cards, and outboxing Thompson until the injury, well above his natural weight!

So? Roy gave up 30 pounds, Haye gave up 100 pounds! You can't ignore those numbers!

 

Good use of angles here.

 

Wow so your completely dismissing the fact that Jones was dead on his feet ? How can anyone take your seriously when you say things like this ?


And who on an elite level has Joe ever stopped ? Jones had hand problems all his career ,give us another excuse ! Maybe his hands wouldn't have been so brittle if he knew how to throw a proper punch !


Its funny he couldn't stop a shot Jones but he stops a prime one

Yet you want to call people fanboys :rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

 

- Glen Johnson put RJJ in a coma
- Calzaghe never put anyone in a coma in his life.

Glen Johnson always had better power than Calzaghe.

Thats part 1, here is part 2:-

RJJ wasnt at his best, and we are discussing the best Calzaghe vs the best RJJ, so how do you think Calzaghe's "Pearler" would do against the best RJJ?

I honestly think prime Calzaghe would stop a shot RJJ, via a Slappage. You do know what a slappage is ?

Fair enough,

You made a point that has no revelance to what I originally stated, but I like the point you made.

The point I made, if I make a hypothetical match up between Prime RJJ and Prime Calzaghe, I would look at the Calzaghe's from SD Reid to UD Lacy.

And I would look at the RJJ from around Malinga to Hill.

I wont look at the Calzaghe that beat BHop as prime Calzaghe, and then match that Calzaghe against the RJJ that beat Toney. That would be unfair match up.

You matching up Calzaghe's "Pearlers" against the RJJ that got flattened by Johnson.

You see the difference man.

Calzaghe of Reid - Lacy era vs RJJ of Toney - Reggie era, thats a fair match up.
------------------------------------
Like you said regarding Tyson.

Tyson of pre Douglas era vs Ali of Cleveland williams.
Fair match up.

But Wladimir of Sam Peter vs Tyson of mcbride,
Unfair match up
-----------------------------------------------

So do I, but that RJJ was past his best, his best was during his SMW and early LHW days

Makes good sense.

I take the **** I said back, but the fact still remains

I speak the truth even when I chat ****.

Chincheckers go overboard with RJJ has a glass jaw. They even got a music video, which I actually enjoyed, on the whole fiasco.

Compare in what aspect?

If I make a hypothetical match up between Muhammad Ali and David Haye.

And then say Muhammad Ali of the Larry Holmes fight against the David Haye of the John Ruiz fight, You know that is bull**** now dont you.

Glen Johnson did what he had to do to win, and it is a good win for him. To be honest I havent seen this fight for a long time, matter of fact I dont really rewatch RJJ fights post Woods.

A early LHW RJJ would have beaten Glen Johnson IMO. Thats the point I am making.

Cool.

Here is a post I made earlier in the thread. check it out, come up with your own analysis.
-----------------------------------------
Roy Jones Jr best wins:-

1. UD James Toney
2. UD Bernard Hopkins
3. MD Antonio Tarver
4. UD John Ruiz
5. KO Virgil Hill
6. TKO Clinton Woods
7. UD Mike McCallum
8. KO Malinga
9. UD Reggie Johnson
10. RTD Lacy, or Lucas

Now Compare that to Zaggers

1. SD BHop
2. UD Kessler
3. UD Lacy
4. UD Eubank
5. SD Reid
6. TKO Mitchell
7. TKO Woodhall
8. UD Brewer
9. UD Bika
10. TKO Manfredo, or Veit
-------------------------------------------

Both set of wins can be disected and attacked as over rated, so that excuse is bull****.

Judge both of them win for win, taking SD's into account aswell as KO's.

RJJ wins > Calzaghe's wins

Calzaghe ran away from the sport to sniff coke and dance on BBC. Regardless Calzaghe a cocaine legend.

Forget who he didnt fight or what he didnt do.

RJJ accomplishments > Calzaghe's.

I agree with you, you put it in perfect words, he navigated carefully. That kind of word play along with "pearler" have been great contributions lyrically, but this is in comparrison with Calzaghe's accomplisments, and there is no comparison.

RJJ accomplishments > Calzaghe's

RJJ when it comes to ability ranks top 10 of all time.

If RJJ did what you say beat Benn, McClellan DM, Maske, Nunn, Collins, Eubank...... He could have been top 10 ATG hands down.

If he beat Lennox Lewis, damn, GOAT.

No doubt.

maybe in two decades time, stay tuned.

Dawson isnt the beast he is being made out to be, you will see BHop give him difficulties end of this month.

Glen Johnson, and Tarver gave Dawson difficulties, Calzaghe would have aswell. But I agree I dont think he would have beaten Dawson.

I think Dawson is getting over rated.

Jean Pascal beat Dawson very convincingly I watched the fight again last night, Pascal did a good job.

Calzaghe did what he needed to do

didnt bother with the rest

 

Fair enough, but I dont think Calzaghe would be able to land flush on Prime RJJ.

Not many were able to land flush on Prime RJJ, he was that good. Eubank was slightly past it and Calzaghe did land a good shot, I agree a pearler, but I dont think Calzaghe would land any pearlers against Prime Jones.

If Calzaghe did land that pearler on RJJ, and RJJ like Eubank didnt expect it, I agree knockdown, but this RJJ wont stand up like Eubank and smile, RJJ would stand up and be more cautious.

:good

:good

good

I have been trying to make a case for Hopkins since the rematch. Its one of those, head thinks Dawson, heart says Hopkins kind of thing now.

To try and justify my heart, I have been watching some old school BHop of the late 90's/early 00's recently, specifically Keith Holmes. Holmes like Dawson, was a taller southpaw but unlike Dawson wasnt as quick and skillfull. BHop took Holmes out with ease, using rough mauling inside tactics in the process which I think he would use at times vs Dawson, and Hops was circling on the outside looking for the right hand shot which I think he tried in the Dawson I affair.

Also to add more justification to my heart, I watched Pascal vs Dawson again, Dawson's only loss, and saw that Pascal would circle the outside then rush in and use his explosiveness to land shots on Dawson. I think BHop would try something similar, he would be circling on the outside and rush in. BHop cant give Dawson that midrange, Dawson was saying he would throw and land hundreds of punches and Hopkins reduced Dawson's punch output to 30 odd by not giving Dawson that midrange. Pascal also didnt give Dawson that midrange. In Hopkins Dawson I, Hopkins stayed on the outside and kept his distance circles left and right looking for an opening, and then charged in suddenly and made it into an inside maul fest where he could land those sneaky shots.

I am probably going to rewatch how Dawson dealt with plodder Glen Johnson I and remember Glen Johnson landing a right hand in round 1 that shook Dawson up. Also to get an insight on how Dawson deals with pressure late on in the fight because I think Hopkins will be amping the pressure late in the fight, especially if he is down on the cards. Only Calzaghe has been able to win the late rounds vs Hopkins, no one including RJJ has been able to beat Hopkins in the late rounds so this time it would be interesting.

Another thing that would justify my heart, BHop needs to have his dirty tactics up to scratch in this fight. He needs to use all the antics, so I rewatched Hopkins vs Antwun Echols II. Probably the greatest masterpiece in dirty boxing history in my opinion, Hopkins came out landed rabbit punches, punched Echols in the balls while the ref wasnt looking, punched Echols in the backside, short elbows....so on. He literally brain****ed Echols, Echols was at times speaking to the camera while BHop did his "acting" on the floor. Echols wasnt the same again. Hopkins would need to do something similar against Dawson in the rematch, he would need to rough Dawson up with some dirty fighting.

After watching all these fights, I think, and this is the key part, A motivated, hungry conditioned BHop can actually win this fight. But its all mental, BHop needs to bring it spot on, he cant be slacking in any department because if Plan A dont work, plan B is going to be even more difficult.

Regardless of winning or losing, I think BHop will give Dawson something to think about on April 28th.

 

Lou Del Valle wasn't feather fisted... he also KD Hill in his fight with him. He had decent power in his left him.If anything this video proves how much RJJ loss later, he was doing something stupid, toying around got caught off balance, more so his fault and was stunned. But you didn't see him wobble when he got up or out on his feet.

You guys and this feather fisted stuff is ridiculous... especially coming from a guy who love Calzaghe so much. I mean... Calzaghe has been knocked down by people with as much power as Lou Del Valle, and was hurt even more. What does that say about his chances taking shots from RJJ, a guy whose power and speed at prime far exceeds any fighter Calzaghe has ever stepped in the ring with.

My point is RJJ punch resistance was not as bad as it is now. He took shots from Hops and others. Now he had great reflexes where he could take the power off of a shot by slightly moving his head. He had that type of ability. but he did have to absorb some shots. He even absorbed some shots from Ruiz, big right hands flushed. One did hurt him though lol, but he ate up the second one.

 

good post man.

I think I will watch RJJ vs Ruiz since its that kind of season these days.

 

That last win you got listed.... the montel Griffin win is better and the Merqui Sosa... both fighters are underrated, especially Merqui Sosa.

 

In the 1st round Ruiz landed two huge right hands one after the other, and the first one did hurt Jones, but the second didn't. After that, the few rights Ruiz landed Jones didn't budge.

 

To me they were both great