Roy Jones Jr. vs. Marvin Hagler, at middleweight< who wins?

1. You really haven't seen the fight and it's obvious, some people had Holyfield drawing the Lennox fight and Chavez drawing with Whitaker. So I suppose they are legit too?

2. You really haven't seen the fight if you think Mercado was 'a good counter puncher' and Hopkins had 'ineffective aggression'. Hopkins hit Mercado at will and outlanded him 10-1 pretty much. Hopkins also knocked Mercado down but the ref didn't call the KDs

3. No he hadn't but we saw how good Hopkins was and he wasn't far from his best, case closed

4. He still beat them when he was MW champ, so shows his ability at the time, as does the Toney domination months after leaving the division. Unless you consider Jones drained at the weight, it shows how good he was at the time

5. I know who Hagler beat, he hasn't fought anyone in Jones class. Hearns maybe his best win and Hearns was weak at the weight and couldn't fight inside to save his life and was beat twice by journeyman Barkley

6. Mugabi is near Jones class now And Hearns and Leonard are blown up welters anyway, great ones but still

7. His win over Hopkins is better than any of Hagler's wins, what has Hagler achieved at middleweight other than lose to the most similar fighter to Jones in a inactive ex welterweight Leonard?

8. Jones lost against Johnson at the age of 35 while unmotivated, Hagler lost against an innactive Leonard at the age of 32 in the biggest fight of his career. Jones had far more championship fights and fought far more ranked contenders than Hagler too

9. Except he was 199 against Ruiz (see the video posted - around the 4min mark) couldn't gain any weight back after his LHW weigh in against Tarver. So he effectively lost 25lbs, was gassed as early as the 5th round and he was 35

 

13 lbs? last time i checked, 199-175=24 lbs. jones had to kill himself to make weight at light heavy.

calzaghe never "beat" the man in either division he fought. joe became the "man" at 168 (after never fighting ottke) with wins over lacy and kessler (wake me when either one of these guys makes the hall), no question. then he beat 43 yr old bhop by SD for the ring 175 lb belt, becoming the recognized champ. (did i mention hbop was 43?)

the thing is this. guys like you claim that jones was never really the light heavy champ because dariusz m. was the linear title holder and at the same time claim joe was the linear champ at 175.

here's the lineage for joe's 175 lb ring title: jones, to tarver, to johnson, back to tarver, to hopkins, to calzaghe.

so if jones was never the legit 175 lb champ, neither was calzaghe. or if you consider calzaghe was the true 175 champ, you also have to say jones was as well.

i've talked tons of crap about calzaghe because of uninformed fans of his but i also understand that he was a fine fighter. just understand that he doesn't deserve to be mentioned with the true greats of the sport.

 

Mercado scored two KD's, and Hopkins gassed in the middle rounds. Once again, you know it's not nearly like Lewis-Holyfield.

Once again, it's fact that Hopkins had achieved nothing at the point that Jones fought him, and needed another two attempts to win a world title.

I've already been over Malinga and Tate, fights that weren't MW, against fighters who were hardly great atsch Malinga had already been beaten by Benn and Eubank.

You clearly don't know much about who Hagler beat. Hearns would have destroyed Jones. Hearns wasn't weak at MW, after all he managed to win a world title there, move further up and win world titles at SMW and LHW. Jones can't fight inside to save his life either, former MW Glen Johnson exposed that! Hearns and Leonard won titles at SMW and LHW, both rank far higher than Jones all time, and would destroy Jones H2H.

His win over Hopkins is not better than Hagler's wins over Duran, Mugabi, Minter and Hearns. Hopkins had achieved nothing when he fought Jones, and needed another two attempts to win a world title. Hagler was past it when he fought Leonard, and never fought again. After losing to Johnson, Jones posted wins over the likes of Sheika, Lacy and Trinidad, former champions.

Once again, I asked what had RJJ achieved at MW, which suggest he can beat a prime Marvin Hagler? You've provided nothing, except your best attempts to derail the topic of discussion.

'Couldn't gain any weight back after his LHW weigh in'? You think he walked into the ring against Tarver weighing 175? Are you serious?? Effectively lost 25lbs? What are you on about!? He never put 25 pounds on to lose, he put on around 7 pounds, and lost that.

 

You need to stop peddling that recycled bull****. Understand this, on fight night as a LHW, Jones weighed 186. Therefore, if we work with 193, it's 7 pounds, if we work with 199 we get 13 pounds. Now do I have to explain to you how weight gain, and weight cutting works?

Kessler was considered the man at 168, and was awarded the ring magazine title. Calzaghe defeated him. Hopkins was considered the man at 175, especially with wins over Wright and Tarver, he too was awarded the ring magazine title. Calzaghe defeated these fighters at the respective weights. Jones never beat the man in any weight division he campaigned at. Titles that Jones won at LHW, were titles vacated by DM, or that he was stripped off.

Jones certainly isn't a true great of the sport.

 

this will be my last post. guys like you aren't worth wasting time on. here in the states we call people like you republicans.

first, if you're stating that jones wasn't weakened by having to make 175, you're have no clue about anything. i can assure everyone here that you are not a fighter and have never had to make weight. yes, fight night he could weighed 186 but that's after having to kill himself to get to 175.

you're wrong again about kessler. calzaghe became the ring champion after defeating lacy. the title was vacant and joe was the #1 ranked fighter at 168 and lacy was ranked #3. kessler was the #1 ranked contender at 168 when joe fought him, joe was already ring champ.

your logic about why joe was considered the man at 175 and why jones was not is comical. it's hard to argue against the lineage, but you still did. (btw, how does hopkins' win over wright, a career 154 lb fighter, legitimize his claim at 175?)

and lastly you claim jones isn't a great of the sport of boxing. if i recall correctly, jones was named fighter of the decade in the 1990s. i'm having trouble remembering all the awards joe won. fighter of the year, no. fight of the year, no again. maybe you can help me out.

 

1. They were flash KDs and no Hopkins did not 'gass in the middle rounds' the more you talk the more obvious it is you're talking about a fight you haven't seen. Hopkins-Mercado is an out and out robbery, I've never met anyone who's scored it to Mercado

2. Needed 2 chances to win a title except he was robbed, strawman disingenuous argument, if your want to be take seriously round here step up your game

3. Ahhh so you haven't seen Benn-Malinga 1 either then? The British commentators called that a robbery, Benn didn't beat him. Eubank-Malinga was razor thin, another fight you haven't seen

4. Hearns would not have destroyed Jones, but that's irrelevant to Hagler facing nothing near the level of speed, power and defensive abilities of Jones

5. Do you actually watch boxing? Jones is an expert in-fighter technique wise

6. So a win over Mugabi a skill less brawler trumps Bernard Hopkins kid? OK I'm not replying you again after this thread, you've exposed yourself as an idiot, Mugabi was a C Class bum

7. It's not about achievement, it's about ability, but Hopkins is a better MW than Hagler ever faced

8. He weighed about 178 for Tarver, he starved himself, which made his stomach so small he couldn't re-absorb any food/water/nutrients. Pretty much like Delahoya-Pacquaio. I take it you've never had to make weight, so wouldn't know

 

Did I state that Jones wouldn't be weakened by making weight? You might want to try reading my post. Any fighter is weakened by making weight, however the extent that Jones was weakened is exaggerated.

At the 193 Jones weighed for Ruiz, he was hydrated. He could have cut to make 182, 182-175 = 7. If you believe he weighed 199, he could have cut to 188. 188-175= 13. Does that make sense?

On the topic of weight gain and loss, educate yourself by reading this fantastic post by General Zod on the matter

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12574837&postcount=556[/url]

That was my mistake about the ring magazine title. However many considered Kessler the man at SMW when Joe faced him. Likewise, many considered Lacy the man at SMW when Joe faced him. Joe cleaned out the division, Roy never did this in any division he campaigned in.

About Jones at LHW, you have to appreciate that titles he won at LHW, were titles that were vacated by DM, or that he was stripped of. Take for example, one of Jones' best wins at LHW, Virgil Hill, he was beaten in his previous fight by none other than DM.

Once again, why are you derailing the subject by bringing Calzaghe into it? Manny Pacquiao was voted the fighter of the last decade, do you honestly believe he was? How about this, Calzaghe was a world Champion for over 10 years, He beat current, future and former World Champions throughout his reign at SMW, and stepped up in weight at the end of his career to win the title at LHW, retiring undefeated in the process. Now try and discuss the issue of Jones and Hagler, without bringing Calzaghe into it :good

 

Once again, your best attempts at derailing the topic of discussion. Say what you want about the fight, both Benn and Eubank beat Malinga before Jones faced him.

Needed 2 attempts to win a world title, isn't a strawman argument, it's a fact.

Hearns would have destroyed Jones. He had a fantastic jab, great speed, good body punching and was a master at setting up his devestating right hand, which would have finished Jones. Name me one great inside fighter Jones defeated, through fighting on the inside. His fights with Hopkins, Toney and Ruiz involved next to no inside fighting, he never engaged quality opponents, instead pot-shotting and running.

A 'skill less brawler' who may well be inducted into the Hall of Fame. It's astounding that you describe John Mugabi as a 'C class bum'.

Achievement is a great indicator of ability, you surely do understand that. Can you provide some substantial proof that he weighed 178 for Tarver, that certainly changes things if true.

When was the last time you ever had to make weight? It's great how every comment you make includes condescending comments, the epitomy a 'keyboard warrior'.

Furthermore, you talk about how weakened Jones was against Tarver, I hope you mention the same point when talking about Toney against Jones, as that's a fantastic example of a fighter being substantially weakened by making weight.

 

Bull**** Artist, you've gone back to doing what you do on the general, just disingenuous twisting of the truth. You're a young kid who hasn't watched many fights, have never boxed and should be learning from your betters. Hopkins was robbed against Mecado, Benn got schooled by Mallinga twice and Mugabi never beat anyone and isn't 1 of Hagler's best wins at all

I'm educating you here, but you fail to listen because of your bias, you know nothing about boxing

 

Maybe i jumped on an average choice of description. But i do think Jones would comfortably outbox Hagler. As a matter of fact in an initial encounter he may well beat him along the lines of 10-5 imo.

I've stated elsewhere i'd pick him over Monzon. I've picked SRR but definitely see RJJ as a chance. I believe Hopkins once he peaked out at 160 would have a chance of rapping him, but even so i'd have Jones as a small fave.

Guilty as charged. I definitely rate Hagler lower than 80% of peeps. However i've always said he is ATG and among the upper tier of 160's ever. Anyone not considering him an ATG simply isn't worth noting. It's his level among fellow incredible's that i debate.

Oh for sure.

Not at all. It's styles. If Frazier beat Ali and Foreman massacred Frazier Ali has no chance right? All 3 were great.

For sure, when i boarded the Magna train i simply believed Jones would win. I took lighting up as a great chance of winning.

 

Can you provide that source of Jones weighing merely 178 against Tarver? I was genuinely curious.

I've made points, and supported what I've said. You've done the opposite. You called John Mugabi a 'C level bum', that was a ridiculous statement and you know it. A fighter who reaches that level, is not a 'bum' end of.

Malinga-Benn 1 was a close fight. Malinga was a good fighter, but not a great fighter, and Jones didn't fight him at MW. Hopkins got KD'd twice by Mercado, and the fight was ruled a draw. You continue to derail the subject, because it's easier than responding to the points I've actually made.

Now, onto the real topic of discussion. Hagler is the greater MW than Roy Jones, he achieved more at the weight, and that is why many regard him as the greatest MW of all time. I favour him over Jones at MW. You have failed to actually refute any of the points I've made, and have now resorted to throwing insults, ironically like a 'young kid' would do.

 

You have blatantly not watched those fights and only quoted the official ruling, while ignoring the possibilities of robberies. Robberies are a common issue that is prevailant in boxing. The points you've made revolve around those issues. Most consider the Mecado fight a robbery and the commentators themselves said Mallinga beat Benn. Eubank did edge out Mallinga but that was close. I've read Mallinga was robbed against Rochiagani too

As for Mugabi you claimed Hopkins hadn't beat anyone and quote Mugabi as a credible win and a HOF opponent, so I asked you 'who did he beat' - I'm waiting

No one disputes that Hagler achieved more at middleweight, that doesn't mean he has more ability though and overall Jones achieved more the Hagler throughout his career

 

Listen, you haven't answered my original question. What had Hopkins achieved when Jones fought him?

Onto Hopkins-Mercado, once again it's irrelevant. It was a close fight, Hopkins tired out later on and Mercado did indeed score two KD's. I'm guessing you also think Hopkins was robbed against Taylor twice, against Calzaghe and against Pascal?

Benn under-estimated Malinga, and under-trained. He was tagged by that jab all night, shouldn't have tried to jab with Malinga, took some hard rights and a nasty uppercut in the process. yes I have seen the fight you clown, it was a close fight, with Benn outworking his opponent as well. Benn on his best night would have beaten Malinga much more clearly.
Once again you continue to avoid my point. He was a good fighter, not a great fighter, and Jones didn't beat him at MW.

You clearly need to educate yourself on Mugabi's career. He was World Champion at LMW, and the number 1 ranked contender in 1985 before Hearns moved up. Hardly a 'bum' as you described him. How can you describe a former world champion as a 'bum'? That's an absolute ****ing disgrace. It's disrespectful to say the least.

Jones was in his prime at LHW, not at MW. Hagler is one of the best MW Champions ever. Hagler would bring the kind of pressure that would trouble Jones, Hagler had very good boxing skills and very good power. I favour him over Jones at MW. There's nothing that Jones has done at MW that suggests to me he's capable of beating Marvin Hagler.

If you truly believe that Jones' win over Hopkins, is better than anything Hagler ever achieved, put your money where your mouth is. Start a thread on it, and let's see what everyone thinks.

 

Cheers JT. Apologize for not getting back on this sooner...Forgot about it actually. Every point you've made is a reasonable shout. I'll just say I can see your scenario of Roy Jones giving Marvin fits with speed and angles. If Duran and Leonard could do it...Roy had the capability. The reason I see it as a closer go is that while Duran and Leonard gave Hagler trouble...I have a hunch that Marvin would go into the fight feeling threatened like he did against Hearns...he knew that he couldn't let Hearns control the pace of the fight, or let Hearns box him at a distance. Hagler couldn't fight an all out fight like that against Jones, because Roy wouldn't engage like that...but he could press Jones ( although Hagler much preferred to have the opponent come to him)...