if Foreman had fought Ali in America..

No, plenty wanted to fight him, indeed he fought five in one night, post Ali. The reality was, Young was an elimination bout and Foreman was eliminated, so Ali was robbed of a rematch...

 

it took 2.5 years 4 d elimination bout 2 take place ? isn't it a bit way 2 long ?
and who r those who wanted 2 fight Foreman ? Shavers ? but he lost 2 Lyle and Foreman stopped Lyle in Lyle's next fight , so it's not like Foreman ducked Shavers in that period .

 

Foreman took 14/15 months to get back into fighting. So having an elimination bout 15 months later seems fair dues in the 70s. Unlike now a days, there were only four capital letters in the boxing alphabet back then. Foreman got into the queue and lost his place to Jimmy Young...

 

I'll take Ali over George in 1974 wherever they fight, as Ali seemed to have his number; it didn't take till the 8th round for Ali to be winning, he was winning from rd. 1 on. As to a rematch in 1976 or later, I'll take George. Ali had declined big time by the Young fight, though Ali definitely deserved the Young decision.

 

Again , who were those who wanted 2 fight Foreman in that period and didn't get it ? and again , maybe it took him all that time because he didn't have no1 2 fight : Ali ducked him , Shavers fought Lyle and got stopped and then Foreman stopped Lyle and then he stopped Frazier again , I doubt that Ken Norton wanted a rematch and who else was there 4 Foreman ? Larry Holmes ? In that period I think Foreman would have fought him 4 small change . Or was it Roy Williams ?

 

Holmes in 75/76 was not a name that if you beat you got a title shot. Foreman got his chance to beat a contender and thus the opportunity for an Ali rematch. He fought Jimmy Young; lost; and duly quit for a decade.

 

If Foreman had n't gone AWOL during 1975,I envisage Ali granting him a rematch during that year.


I'll add that I'm finding the talk of Ali and Young getting lucky because of the Zaire and Puerto Rico heat really............really tedious now. A boxer needs to adapt to prevailing conditions. George could n't. END OF ! (hopefully....)

 

And again , u just showed that there wasn't any1 other than Ali 4 Foreman 2 fight in that period . Jimmy Young came @ d end of a 2.5 years of Foreman waiting 4 Ali . Young couldn't beat Foreman under a more temperate climate .
My question 2u was y didn't Ali fight Foreman in that 2.5 years period ? your initial reply was that there were others 4 Foreman 2 fight and i showed u there weren't . Foreman already cleaned them all . Foreman was D top dog , with capital D and Ali didn't want no part of him in America . Neither did Jimmy Young . Yes Puerto Rico may b considered America , but d intention here is a temperate climate .

 

Another thing : notice how Markegiano gave both Charles & Cream immediate rematches , just like they gave each other . Both Patterson and Johansson did d same with each other .
Liston did it with Patterson . Both Ken Norton & Leon Spinks did it with Ali and Michael Spinks did it with Larry Holmes and Holyfield did it with Tyson .
There r of course more examples 2 this but i hope u get d idea .

Not a very odd thing 2 do 4 a champion , 2 grant his last opponent n immediate rematch .
And none of d examples I mentioned provided a more deserved immediate rematch than Foreman .
But Foreman didn't get his rematch even after he stopped Lyle & Frazier (again) .

 

I've read all the posts; I don't see Ali beating George anywhere and in any venue at that time. Ali had the clout and was able to dictate the time and place. Jeez-o-pete he had the Zairians hating George. I followed the pre-fight hype at the time and I jumped up and cheered at the stoppage! But, in retrospect, young George, by the time he stepped into the ring in Zaire, had his head totally screwed up, thanks to Ali and the 'powers that be'.
A prime Ali would have beaten a prime Foreman, but the Zaire bout is IMO not representive of how they should have played out.
NO WAY Ali wanted an Astrodome or a MSG bout quickly.
Everything was in Ali's favor in Africa. Nothing was in George's favor there.
I was there, I love Ali, I think he the greatest HW of all time but his Zaire win neither enhances his legacy nor detracts from it IMHO.

 

frankenfrank occupation ALI HATER

 

No , u r a fanboy . I only insist on perceiving and remembering reality d way it (really) was .

 

dis

 

Hard to say how the fight would've turned out had they fought in the US. Maybe Ali's, voodoo scare tactics in Zaire and not having the entire crowd on his side migh have affected George differently. Don't honestly know if the outcome would be the same but I can't see it being relatively different either. Who knows if the quality of the ring and the issue of the loose ropes would be a factor. If it were in Texas, I'd have to lean towards George getting the job done.

 

Ali's speed advantage over Foreman was ridiculous. He was firing lightning bolts off extremely loose ropes. Tighten those ropes and that return fire comes even faster, with more force. Straight punching trumps telegraphed looping shots. In Kinshasa, he marked up George's face pretty quickly. He was observed by Bob Sheridan to be the fresher man already as the bell rang to begin round four, and Frazier made the comment after just three rounds that Foreman wasn't pacing himself properly, but overexerting and wasting his energy. (Joe provided intelligent and prescient observations from very early on during the fight's progress.)

Then, Muhammad staggered George with a right-left-right burst out of a neutral corner 25 seconds into round four. Unless Foreman was indeed drugged as he's suggested, these are awfully quick developments regardless of the climate, especially for a 24 year old HW Champion with an eight year youth advantage.

Muhammad quickly discovered he was in a slow ring with loose ropes and couldn't dance as he tried to do in the opening round. We're now talking about putting him in a faster ring with a cooler environment. Does Foreman still gas quickly? Well, we'd already seen that happen with a younger Ali opponent when he took on Jerry Quarry in their Las Vegas rematch. Jerry would beat Lyle over the 12 round distance less than eight months later, just as he'd previously defeated Mathis and stopped Spencer in that time frame previously. (And JQ was coming off a strong finish in a ten rounder over Middleton the previous month.)

Not a snowball's chance in hell that George could have ever successfully defended the title against Ali anywhere, even in Houston. There was no sign in Kinshasa whatsoever that he might have been able to stop Muhammad quickly, he hadn't been an active champion in competition sharpened condition, and nobody had extended him since Peralta over four years earlier, while Ali had gone the 12 round distance in his five previous bouts over the same time Foreman recorded a combined seven minutes of action against Roman and Norton. This is a fatal stamina deficit to take into the ring against the likes of Ali, who would drop Wepner for what would have been the full count with 18 seconds left to go in round 15 his very next time out. Keep in mind that he'd already stopped Bonavena in 15 during the 1970s, would have stopped Frazier in the 15th at Manila according to Carlos Padilla if Futch had let Joe out to touch gloves for the final round, and he had Shavers going at the final bell in September 1977. Leon Spinks even had to hold him off in the final round when he lifted the title in February 1978. At no time in the 1970s would George have ever enjoyed an advantage in endurance over Muhammad, unless it was against the dreadfully ill prepared Ali of the Young bout. (Even then, Muhammad made a blazing fast 19 year old Dokes miss like crazy in an exhibition prior to Young.)

Can't see it. If Foreman couldn't knock him out, George had no Plan B. He did hammer Ali's body as Frazier and Chuvalo tried, to no apparent effect. His whole offense was his defense. He couldn't make Ali miss as Smoke was able to do in the FOTC. (For his comeback, he was more proactive on defense, as Archie Moore installed his old cross-armed guard, but Foreman was wide open during the 1970s with Dick Sadler as his lead trainer.)