Fresh off the win over Sonny Liston and right just before 2 rematches with Sonny....watch the 4:13 mark of this clip...Johnson was a great fighter but Marshall was KO'd 2 times by Embrell Davis who Archie Moore Ko'd in 1 round, just goes to show you how styles make fights...I,m not saying Marshall was a bad fighter, I respect him and see an advanced style before his time but he was no world beater [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gZV-nXQxjQ&feature=relmfu[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE1ka75pinY&feature=relmfu"][/ame]
Liston was stepping up in class pretty quickly during his early pro career. Marshall wasn't a great fighter, but that's boxing.. given the right circumstances, you can lose to anyone early in your career. Ali and Marciano had fights that in a different universe could've been losses against Jones and LaStarza. Then I also think Liston wasn't THAT good, but I have to be careful with the Liston patrol on this site.
Back then, in late-1954, when Sonny fought Marty Marshall,,,,,,,,, Sonny was a 'stiff lumbering type' with 'cement shoes',,,,, Still no excuse,,,,,,,,,he had no business losing to 'herky jerky' Marty Marshall, who was a 29 1/2 year-old 'late blooming boxer' who was really nothing more than an '8-Round Preliminary Fighter'. And a 180 lb. Michigan Light-Heavyweight (with skinny no muscle 'toothpick' legs) fighting a 200+ 'hulkmeister' too. But in boxing,,,,,,,,,anything can happen
Of course Liston wasn't "that good" at 7-0. Nor was Armstrong, who lost to Baby Manuel when he was something like 12-2. Nor was Billy Conn when he lost to Eberle at 4-1 or whatever he was. Nor was Jack Demspey when he was 7-2 (and the rest) when he go beat by Jack Downey. Sometimes fighters without a lot of experience lose to fighters that aren't that good. Everyone knows that.
I think everybody knows that but Marshall struggled to weigh 179, and 180lbs yet even in the last battle with Liston when Sonny was 13-1, Marshall went the distance and this is the same Marshall who was already KO'd by Embrell Davis and dropped by Harold Johnson....My point is styles make fights but I also don't think Sonny was as good as the hype...He had the best scary look though, better than Louis,Tyson and even Foreman...this is where Sonny is # 1
When he had the room, 'The Michigan Bomber' could throw that 'cork-screw right hand'. My neighbors Great Uncle (from Grand Rapids, Michigan) saw Marty Marshall fight there in November 1954, right after he defeated Sonny Liston. He said, Marty 'Knocked-out' 'Italian Hot Shot' Tony Lomonaco with one of those 'cork-screw right hands', which ended Lomonaco's career. Marty Marshall This content is protected
And my point is that using this fight to prove that Liston wasn't as good as his hype is ridiculous, and no different to undermining Conn, Armstrong, Dempsey and the dozens of other champions and world class fighters with an early loss. It's mostly meaningless. Further more, this type of attitude is exactly why promoters these days are so afriad of matching their charges tough - even fifty years later an early loss can be held against a prospect. Heck, you seem to be holding Liston's early win over Marshall against him because it wasn't a KO, although you fail to mention that Liston does indeed hold a sixth round stoppage over Marshall, the first man to do so in three years, with the ATG Harold Johnson and ATG power-puncher Bob Sattersfield both having failed in the meantime. Marshall was an awkward and accomplished journeyman by the time a novice Liston got to him. Winning a series 2-1 is a fine result for him. While we're on the subject though, what do you think an early KO loss to Joe Chip and early inability to beat Whitey Wenzel tells us about Harry Greb?
I always read posts about some of the ATG's and how close fights early on are often held against them. I don't really hold this against Liston but I do hold the 2 Ali fights against him and the way he lost....I also take a few points off Liston for the Leotis Martin KO loss but as an aggregate it ALL COUNTS. Liston's best win was over Patterson 2x and Cleveland Williams but Bob Satterfield smashed Williams badly before Sonny so how impressive was the win? I am not as impressed as I used to be with Sonny, he had a few large cracks in his armor
As much as I admire Charles 'Sonny' Liston,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think I have to agree with Bummy Davis,,,,,,,, He may have been built-up as an 'Invincible Force', but there were a few weak links in his chain. Two 'hairline' Decision wins over Johnny Summerlin are always forgotten.
Detroit Free Press September 8, 1954 Marty Marshall, the man who baffled Sonny Liston, did everthing that was unexecpted - and Liston, a predictable fighter, found the unpredictable Marshall beyond his ken. Marty Marshall, who fights from an extremely unorthodox style, which finds him as a right-hander one-minute and a southpaw the next, confused Sonny Liston throughout the fight. As the fight wore on, Liston became more and more frustrated by his inability to catch up with the 'ever-moving' Marshall, and the Detroiter took the play away from him through the final three rounds to clinch his triumph. Marshall, 'The Michigan Bomber', a 30 year-old 6' 0' 180 lb. fighter, is the master of the '3-step bop', kind of a dance - then the cork-screw right hand. It is a 'sucker-punch' that found its home on the chin of the lumbering Sonny Liston many times Tuesday Night at the Motor City Arena. To make matters worse, everytime that Marshall threw his cork-screw right hand, he let out a a 'hoot sound', letting everyone in the Motor City Arena know that the right-hand was on its way. Everyone heard the 'warning sound' - except the 'frozen stone' Sonny Liston, who caught the punch on his face nearly evertime the 180 lb. Detroiter uncorked it.
Of course there are - in the armour of every great. The above at least, is relevant, but the Marshall fights mean nothing apart from that he was beating tough opposition early.
It was the norm rather than the exception for a fighter of Liston's era, even a great one, to pick up a loss early in their career. Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano for comparison, did not pick up a loss at the equivalent stage of their respective careers, but there was a significant element of luck involved. It could just as easily have turned out the other way. Once a fighter has built a reputation at the elite level, it is hard to get through to people that anybody is prety beatable early in their career. This fight does show how good Jeffries was, and underline the silliness of people who dismiss his opposition without taking into acount his level of experience.
"Liston beat me in the 2nd fight like no man should be beaten. When I fought him for the 3rd time, I knew there was no way I was going to let him do that to me again. I ran for survival. I was not going to let him hit me again". - Marty Marshall