Roy Jones vs Calzaghe at their peaks. Objectively tell me...

Knockout,

Hi mate! Great reply.

Part 1.

I agree with your comment about Hopkins, he'd not set the World on fire, but I think he was more than just a prospect coming through. But your right he wasn't a big name at the time. He lost his very first fight too I believe? He certainly got better as he got older.

I think Mike was a hell of a fighter! I don't think Mike gave him a close fight the 2nd time, but he gave him a fight. He had to move through the weights because he found it too hard in his late 30's to make the weight. But my point was, he still had the abilty to fight at that level. He hadn't been embarrassed or took a beating to my knowledge. I think he could have had a few more fights against lesser oppostion, but he'd had enough. He'd accomplished everything, and there wasn't anything left for him to do really. But I think he still had the abilty to fight on if he'd have wished.

After what happened to Roy in 2004 and 2005, he had no business whatsoever fighting at World level. I've no idea how he could have been ranked at No. 6 by any Organisation. His three comeback wins should have had no bearing on his ranking. Nobody had heard of Amaju or Anthony Hanshaw. Tito hadn't fought in years and he couldn't even make the 170 catchweight. All the wins did, was give Roy a little bit of his confidence back that he'd lost. Apart from that, the fights were meaningless.

I remember watching the Tito fight live, and then afterwards they went back into the studio, where Steve Bunce (who I like) gave his opinion. He said Roy had to do a hell of a lot better than he'd done to get Joe in the ring. He said he needed at least another fight, and on the that evidence, the fight probably wouldn't get made. That was January. As we know Roy didn't have another fight. The fight was made for September, but Joe had to pull out with an injury. So the fight got pushed back to November. I'm sat there in the house and Buncey is on giving his opinion. I thought this will be interesting. I listened and he said, Roy looks in great shape. He's back! He looked great against Tito showing flashes of brilliance, and this is going to be a great fight. He's back to his old self. Ha! I couldn' believe what I was hearing. I know he gets paid to hype the fight, but he was telling the truth in January. That fight for me was hard to watch, because I knew (apart from the knockdown) exactly what was going to happen. Joe thought he was done in 2006, but on the basis of his three points wins against Ajamu, Hanshaw and Tito, he thought he was back to his best? I'm almost certain that Joe wouldn't even have seen two of those fights. He cashed in the chips, as simple as that really.

I don't agree that Roy was a paper Champion. He'd beaten Griffin, Hill, de valle, he'd already beaten Toney, and all Dariusz was doing, was defending at home against lesser opposition. Like I say, the injustice that had happened to him, should have made him more determined to get the belts. But it didn't. I know Hill had lost, but he was still a good fighter. Roy never did great PPV but of course he was a house hold name.

I think in recent years the K Brothers have put Germany on the map. They love fighting there, and now whoever they fight know that they're going to have to travel to Germany. But back in 2001/2002, Germany had never held a big event. I'm not saying they literally couldn't hold one, I just mean they had no experience, and they could never have hosted a Huge fight like a Unification bout at 175. There wouldn't have been enough money involved. Nobody would have wanted to watch that fight in a football Stadium. HBO or Showtime etc couldn't have covered it. The fight would have had to have been made in a Vegas Casino. Otherwise it'd have gone live in the U.S. in the early hours of the morning, and the PPV numbers would have been poor.

No American fighter has ever needed to travel. Some have, but most haven't, and haven't needed to. Roy was the best in the World, he was never going to travel. But all of the money was In America. As I said in my previous post, 90% of the Worlds best fighters are either American, South American, or they're based in America. There's no way if Khan was still in the U.K. he'd be fighting the callibre of fighters that he is at the moment.

I don't see how anybody could have expected Roy to go to Germany in 2001? I don't think Roy not travelling affects his legacy in any way. Because all of the fighters he missed apart from Eubank, all those fights would have taken place in America had they come off. He deservedly gets abuse for Frazier, but my point was, in the very next fight he Unified the division against Reggie in a big fight thst everyone wanted to see. Also Frazier was him mandotary.

He was proclaimed No.1 after Toney, because of the manner in which he beat World class fighters. By the time he ws beating these cans, he was a three weight World Champion that had already proven how great he was. The SMW division that Joe Unified was a lot weaker than the the one that Roy Unified. I can pick Floy's record to bits, despite him being a great fighter. Did he beat Castillo? He didn't want anything to do with Cotto in 2006. He wouldn't cash Oscar's rematch cheque for millions of dollars because he'd had a close fight, and Oscar seemed really confident about a rematch, and begged him for one.

He's scared stiff of Manny! None of Manny's opponents are bothered about him taking a test. They all sign for the fight. Oscar, Hatton, Clottey, Cotto etc have never accused Manny of taking anything. If Manny beats someone in style, Jeff, Roger, Floyd Snr, and Floyd are all adament that he's taken something. But if he has a close fight like against Marquez, none of them even mention the S word. They're all jokers. I think Floyd would be the favourite in that fight, but Manny scares him. He says he's got 3 or 4 fights left in him. But they won't be against Manny, Alvarez or Martinez. Roy never proclaimed to be the Greatest fighter ever to have lived like Floyd has.

 

Part 2.

Getting back on topic, I know it would have been a huge risk for Joe to give his SMW strap up. But Roy and Hopkins didn't fight at SMW, so he didn't have a choice. As I said, the longer he defended it at home, the less chance he had of getting a big fight. Because each time he beat someone in the U.K. it didn't send any ripples through the rest of the Boxing World. Even if he put in a great performance, which more often than not he did, nobody outside of the U.K. saw it. Nobody in the U.S. would have watched his fight against Robin Reid like we did. He never got any publicity, so he never got the respect that his skills deserved.

I just think that Joe was irrelevant to Roy and Bernard, because at the time it wouldn't have been a big fight. It would have been for Joe and to everyone in the U.K. but not to anyone else. The SMW was dead in the early 00's. I honestly believe he could have excited the fans in The U.S. and gone up the 175 rankings pretty quickly. He needed to get himself established in Roy's weight class, and become known before he thought about getting a fight with Roy. As I've said, I'd have tried to have lured Roy into the ring by trying to beat DM. Then he'd have had something that Roy wanted.

Roy wouldn't have been interested in even a catchweight in 2002. Because his options at the time were Joe, Tarver and Ruiz. He knew even if Ruiz didn't come off, he was going upto heavy. Roy was willing to fight at 168 in 2008 because he was at the end of his career. He knew he would never go back to Heavyweight again. This whole quest for the Cruiserweight Title that he now has, is because it's just an excuse to prolong his career. He could have beaten any of the Cruiser Champions either on the way to Ruiz, or when he came back down afterwards. But the Cruiser division was dead and has been for years, and he had no interest in it whatsoever. If you'd have asked him in 2008, I'm pretty sure he'd have dismissed ever fighting there.

But now he's got knowhere to go, he's saying it's something he's missed. But he missed it because it wasn't relevant. I think Roy would have been more than willing to fight DM, if DM had've gone to the U.S. I think if Joe had've had a 175 Title, or had become a Mandotary, or had created a buzz, I think Roy would have been more than willing to have fought him at 175.

I don't dispute that they made offers, but the offers didn't carry any weight. The offer was made to Roy in 2001/2002. As I say, Roy at the time was looking to go upto heavy, and nobody knew who Joe was. If there had've been a global demand for the fight, I think Roy would have been happy to oblige. It depends what you class as chasing? Like I say, in my opinion Frank phoning Murad up is not chasing a fight. That's an enquiry. Chasing would have been moving up the rankings at 175, fighting in America, and constantly calling him out, or having a face to face like Collins did. Collins can say he chased Roy for a fight. But if Roy's fighting at 175 in America, and Joe was fighting at 168 in the U.K. on Sky Sports, that isn't chasing a fight is it? Not in my opinion it isn't.

I'm not saying Joe could have just got on a plane, and in a year later he'd have been fighting Roy. It would have taken a lot of hard work and patience. But if Clinton can get a fight with Roy, Johnson (X3) and Tarver, I don't see how Joe couldn't have got one at some point. Even If he hadn't have fought Roy, he still would have got global recogniton and the respect he deserved if he'd have eventually have won a 175 Title, which I think he definitely would have. Being a two weight World Champion would have been a far bigger achievemnet than Unifying against Kessler in my honest opinion.

Good point regarding Hopkins, but Kessler had done nothing when he walked into the ring with his two belts against Joe. He'd beaten Sciaca and Cummins etc. He was built up because of his appearence and his undefeated record. I don't think Joe had the confidence to really chase after Roy. Apparently he kept pulling out of the Johnson fight. If Frank really had to pull him round to get him to fight Lacy, then how could he have being confident about getting Roy into the ring and beating him?

I think he deserves quite a lot of the stick he gets to be honest. Because it's the way he comes across in interviews. He always makes himself out to be a victim. He wanted all the big fighters, but he couln't get any of them, because they all ducked him, because of how great he was etc. I've got no sympathy for him. It was a vicious circle that he found himself in.

He never fought in the U.S., so he wasn't known Worldwide. That meant that Frank had no power to negotiate. When he made enquiries to Murad and Hopkins's team, they got half hearted responses back., like "Yeah we'd consider it but we want 80% of the purse or something stupid". Frank angrily told them they were taking the ****, and it was an insult to Joe. So Bernard and Roy went and fought someone else for Millions instead.

He had to go to The U.S. and earn is respect and become well known. Then he wouldn't have been just another European fighter to Bernard and Roy, he'd have been a well respected big money fight, especially if he'd have a had a 175 belt etc. If Joe had've taken DM's belt and had called Roy out, it wouldn't have just been another fight to Roy, it'd have been a huge Unification fight for big money.

Joe was always going to be taken advantage of in negotitions when he didn't have global recognition. So I suppose I have a little sympathy, but he never didn't anything to change that in my opinion. I hate how he says he chased Roy for 5 or six years. Again, by doing what exactly? Fighting Mario Veit etc? Frank may have made enquiries for five or six years, but he certainly didn't do one proactive thing to make Roy take any notice of him. That's my honest opinion. Even if he'd have lost to Roy, he'd certainly be a lot more respected than what he is at present.

Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

This level of prime Jones consists of one SMW win of note over an alledged weight drained Toney who has a terrible SMW resume and had an overated resume full of SDs and a lucky win over Tiberi. Toney was behind against Nunn before the finish.
As for the Reid fight
Ask yourself this. How could you not score rounds 2, 3, 4,7, 8 (

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), 12 to Calzaghe? Remember Reid had a point deducted also.

I thought like 2 judges that Calzaghe was a clear winner and except for McCrory who scored a draw and later seemed to agree all of the other studio guest scored wide for Calzaghe including Mcguigan and Eubank. I also think damaged handed (damaged his hand in round 4) Calzaghe won and felt he won rounds 1, 9 (Reid did land the punch of the night in round 9 though) & 11.

Good away win for Calzaghe

 

Well the lesser accomplished novice LHW who lost when he stepped up in M Griffin was giving Jones all kinds of probs and ahead on at least one card, so if the fight had of been stopped that would have only been a SD for Jones and Reid was better than Griffin

 

atsch So you think because something happend in one fight the same thing would happen every time . Calzaghe was up and throwing punches and not having to hold.
Consider that A Mundine went the full 12 with big SMW punchers in Echoles, Kessler and D Green but was KOd by Ottke.
You saw what happend when a shot Calzaghe fighting at a weight he had only had one fight at did to Jones when got up, if you look at it your way

 

What is the problem with SJS19 and Bailey? 18 pages for this shitty thread, one thread that doesn't have to do with realities but fiction? Did Mama and daddy didn't give you both enough attention when you were small???

 

I apologize to both Bailey and SJS19a nd the whole board, I have no right to interfere and people are basically free so ignore what I insanely said and keep it up, ignore whateva and I might even get into the thread like a reasonable member...

 

Robin Reid was not better than Montell Griffin.

 

No, objectively no. But it just annoys me that you put RJJ and Joe Calzaghe side by side when Joe fought one washed up RJJ in a stupid affair that Jones tried to make money out of a Calzaghe-Hopkins outcome. My answer to the thread is RJJ TKO like he did to Clinton Woods and my answer to you is kids, stay out of drugs... It is pleasure at the momment and pain aftrewards until you die.

 

Part 2

 

Ive answered most of this already so just to skim over. Calzaghe didnt have a LHW title either and people did know DM with his win over Hill.
You forget that Collins was in the ring and didnt even get acknowledged. Calzaghe showed he was willing to travel, he only had about half of his world title fights in his own country and fought in Denmark, Germany and twice in America. 2 of those fights were against active world champs and one to a world rated former champ many predicted him to lose against