Roy Jones vs Calzaghe at their peaks. Objectively tell me...

Bailey,

In response to your latest reply from yesterday.

I don't think that it's even debatabe that America is the home of Boxing. It's got nothing to do with the crowds, it's the Casino's, promoters, and Networks etc. Of couse you could get more in a German football Stadium than what you could get in a Vegas Casino. The K brothers have put Germany on the map, and they have power now because they are both Champions. If they weren't Champions they would have to fight in the U.S. like they had to do earlier on in their careers.

Back to DM, I agree with you 100%. DM had as much right to those belts as what Roy had. I know exactly what happened to him. But as I said in my previous post, you would have thought that the injustice would have made him more determined to fight Roy for them.

Barrera might have expressed a desire to come to England, but I don't think Frank could have made that fight in the U.K. Barrera was based in The U.S. and that's where the money was. Also Naz fighting in New York meant that he showcased his talents to a Worldwide audience.

Griffin didn't have a great resume, and I liked Richie Woodhall, but Griffin was better known. My point was, Roy would have gotten more Money fighting that calibre of opponent, rather than fighting a European fighter in Britain.

This is the main point of our debate. You said, "You seem to struggle to understand that Joe didn't care what the American's thought of him at the time!"

The point is, if he didn't care about impressing them, or cared what they thought, then HOW COULD HE EXPECT TO BE PAID THE CROWN JEWELS TO FIGHT ROY??

I'm not being funny, but it's ridiculous! Nobody knew who he was. HBO, Showtime, etc, etc. So he couldn't have got paid the crown Jewels. He wasn't a huge Global star of the Boxing World. He had no right and was in no position to demand the crown Jewls. Then when he couldn't get them, he said "I wanted Roy but he priced himself out" When the truth was, Roy demanded the lions share, because again, nobody knew who Joe was. It was a vicious circle.

He didn't get offered big paydays and didn't have global recognition and the repect he deserved. But, that's because he was fighting for Frank on Sky in Britain all the time. Nothing was ever going to change, until he got off his arse and tried to do something about it like Ricky did. This is why I have little sympathy for Joe. Ricky chased a fight with Floyd. Collins flew to the U.S. and had a face to face with Roy, and chased a fight. Joe didn't do any of those things.

All he did, was get Frank to make a few phone calls. And then when Frank came back and said, they'll pay you peanuts, he got the huff on, and tried telling people he'd been ducked. Frank and Joe had no power whatsoever.

Frank making enquiries is not chasing a fight!

You say Jones turned down the offer. But again, the truth is, he demanded the lions share and Joe wasn't happy, so the fight didn't get made.

For Roy to come down to 168 he would have wanted the lions share. Neither party could agree, so Roy went on fighting the Glen Kelly's of the World at 175.

Joe is only considered the best SMW fighter ever based on accomplishments, and rightly so. But he isn't the greatest SMW fighter of all time.

In my honest opinion Joe had two options.

1. He tried to do everything in his power to make himself known Worldwide, so he could get big money fights.

2. If he wasn't prepared to crack America, then when/if the opportunity came about to fight Roy/Hopkins, he had to accept whatever the offer was.

He couldn't have his cake and eat it.

He could have fought Roy, if he'd have taken a lot less money. But in his words, he wanted the crown Jewels for it.

But he couldn't expect to be paid the Crown Jewels when he was fighting Mario Veit and Robin Reid on Sky In Britain.

That is how simple it was.

He had no power to negotiate for the Crown Jewels, because despite how great he was, to Roy and Hopkins, he was just classed as a good European fighter, that brought nothing much to the table. Roy wasn't interested in Joe's belt. He'd already given up his version of that Title 5 years previously.

Hop wasn't going to move up to 168 for a 50/50 split.

Roy wasn't going to come down for a 50/50 split.

Joe needed to either get recognition, accept a low offer, or stop whinging.

If Joe had've had Ricky Hatton's ambition, he could/would have been a Superstar with his talents.

An enquiry via telephone is not chasing a fight!

Roy Jones was never going to come to Newbridge.

If he didn't fight in Roy's Country or in Roy's weight class, he most certainly did not CHASE Roy for five or six years. He's kidding himself!

Also, If he tried to pull out of the Lacy fight, and he pulled out three times against Johnson, then he knew in his heart that he couldn't have beaten a peak Roy Jones. Frank said that it wasn't a physical injury against Lacy, it was a psychological problem. He didn't believe in himself.

Have you ever thought that, If Joe seriously had've thought that he could have beaten Roy, then he could have accepted whatever offer was on the table? Because if Joe had've beaten Roy (which you think was possible) he would have been the biggest Star in Boxing!

Joe and Frank must have known going into the negotiations, that they would get a low offer?

I think Joe played on it, and used it as an excuse, so his pride wasn't hurt.

Nobody ever debates on here, that Joe could have accepted the terms for the fight. He didn't have any intention in my opinion. He knew he wasn't going to get a great offer of millions of pounds. When he didn't get it, he then told people he was desperate for the fight, but it was Roy's fault the fight didn't come off.

Joe was a great fighter, but he'll never be classed as an ATG.

Great debate, and I respect your opinions, even though I don't agree with most of them.

Many Thanks!

Loudon.

 

Loudon

Hi mate, I haven't forgotten to reply to your posts, I'm just having a horrible week! I'll get back to you as soon as I can, probably around Wednesday.

Great posts by Bailey and yourself, great to have posters of your ilk on these boards.

Thanks techks!

 

Hi mate,

Don't worry about it mate. I appreciate people can't always get on here whenever they want.

Just reply when you can. I'll keep looking out for your posts. It's great debating with you, Bailey and Scott. There's no need for all the name calling.

I'm on a mission on here. My mission is to get Metal to agree with me on something before the end of the year ha! Will it be possible?

Speak to you soon mate.

Regards, Loudon.

 

After Jones beat Ajamu the journalist report said that if nobody knew about Jones losses sandwiched between, that performance would have fiited right in, and besides the first round, I dont disagree. Jones looked good against Lacy and Sheika after Calzaghe beat him, and consider Sheika after being outclassed by Jones gave then world rated Diaconu a tough fight after that.
Jones said he took a long time to adjust back to LHW and against Ajamu his body seemed back comfy again. Against Tito Jones just played with him and carried him which nobody had done like that before, even when he was shut out by Wright, he wasnt toyed with.
Now I dont think anybody has said Jones was back to his very best, but he was better than when he first dropped down from HW and I dont think when you compare the two that that is in question.

As noted the majority picked for Jones and he was #6 LHW with wins over other top LHWs at the time including Tarver, Hopkins, Woods that I can remember off the top of my head.

Roy was 39, Calzaghe 36 and both had had many fights. You note Calzaghe would get into tear ups and was easy to hit, so would it not be fair to think Calzaghe was just as far past his best. Remember Calzaghe was closer to the end of his career than Jones and was suffering terrible brittle hands, which put him very far past his best.

I did compare two versions of Jones and nobody when looking at them really is able to tell the difference. The opponent is what I think made the difference as Hall was very slow and unable to work his way in like Calzaghe.

Michalczewski was making bigger money in Germany and Jones would have made big money there two. Why should DM have gone for an injustice, why didnt Jones want to go and challenge the man rather than collect belts he dropped?

Once again, you have not explained how O Grant a new WBO MW champ with no massive US fan base can be given a shot, but Calzaghe would have to go to America and campaign out there, dropping his title and fighting for less and at a new weight, when Grant could be given an offer yet Calzaghes not accepted

Roy wanted the crown jewels to fight Calzaghe. 10 mil seems like that to me. Why would Jones want so much to face an unknown when I heard he was getting around 2 mil a fight at that time?
I doubt Calzaghe could have got paid more to fight as an unknown in a new weight division in a new country than he could defending a world title in big domestic clashes with world class opponents based in his own country in Reid and Woodhall.
Its like Haye and Chisora is a big fight in England where they will make good money, they wouldnt make the same fighting a nobody in America when the fight is in their own country.
You note Hopkins saying he didnt lose sleep over losing money, which I doubt Hopkins agreed to 3 mil then asked for 6 and then fought Hakkar for less than half the 3 mil first offered. Now you will tell me Hakkar built a name in America. So I cant see how they were getting bigger fights either and Calzaghes team made an offer.

 

I am one of Jones' biggest fans...

But not even I can argue these irrefutable facts.rofl

 

Bailey,

Great reply, thanks a lot!

I've seen The Ajamu fight about 4 times. I watched it Live on Eurosport. All it was, was a confidence booster against a nobody. He obviously wasn't going to retire after his three consecutive losses, so he had to take a fight of this kind. Roy looked good in the Amaju fight, and he had patches against Hanshaw. Yes he also looked great against Sheika and Lacy, and that was after Calzaghe. That's a fair point. But they were all B class opposition. He could still beat guys of that standard, but on the World stage he was finished.

Again the Tito win was pretty pointless, apart from that Tito was a name and it got him the fight with Joe. Again it boosted his confidence. But he only did what he was expected to do. The fight was a 170 catchweight, and Tito couldn't even make it. Tito at that point was completely washed up. Roy said if he couldn't beat him in four he'd have to retire. But apparently Roy tore he left bicep.

Joe was past his best too yes. But as I stated to knockout, just a year prior to his fight against Roy, he said "I feel as though I'm at my best right now. My hands aren't as strong, and I can't knock guys out like I used to, but overall I'm a much better fighter than I was ten yersa ago. This version of me would have kicked the arse of the Eubank version of me"! That's what Joe said in 2007, just before he fought Kessler. Obviously at 35/36, he wasn't in his physical prime, but he thought he was a better all round fighter at that point.

Roy on the other hand had been brutally knocked out by Glen 4 years earlier. I just think the fight was pointless, and it has no bearing on would have happened had they fought before. That's my honest opinion but I respect yours. Again, what Joe said in 2006 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. He'd written Roy off, and rightly so, and then when the opportunity came up to fight him, he tried to backtrack on what he'd said. He was asked by a jouralist about his comments in his book and he responded by saying, "Yeah! I did say that, but he's had three great wins and he's back to his best!" In my opinion, that's a complete joke!

You've got to be winding me up about the two versions of Roy your comparing? If you look at the pictures they look very similar yes. But Roy as a fighter was completely different. He'd lost his legs, his reflexes, his punch resistance, his timing, pretty much everything, apart from his handspeed. He'd also lost his confidence that he had when he was the best. I'm sure you're joking with me?

Regarding DM, again if Dm felt hard done by, why didn't he go to The U.S.? The onus was on DM. Roy said he wouldn't fight in Germany after what had happened in the Olympics and he'd fight him anywhere but there. You can't blame him, he'd had his fingers burnt, and look at some of Sven Ottke's wins, some of them were outragous. I think DM was happy doing what he was doing. I think if he'd have gone to America, Roy would have fought him.

Are you talking about Otis Grant? Grant not having a fanbase doesn't come into it. He was an American fighting at 175 in Roy's weight class, that's why he was able to get a shot. As I've said, Joe couldn't have expected to have made a great deal of money at first, but if the American's had've seen what we'd seen, then I think at 28/29 he'd have had the World at his feet. I think he could have had a huge fanbase, especially in New York with his Italian Herritage.

Why would Roy want that much? Because he'd have had to have come down in weight, and he was the Man, and he had the power. He was just trying his luck I think. If Roy's offer was accepted, he'd have taken the fight, but if it wasn't, then he doesn't lose any sleep over it. He turned down Joe in late 2002, and then fought Ruiz. Murad says that he made him $17m. Roy was ialways in a position to demand the lions share.

I agree with your example of Haye and Chisora. They would get more money fighting each other now, than if they fought a nobody in America. But the circumstances are completely different. I'm talking about Joe at around 28 trying to crack America. Haye will only fight a few more times I think, and Chisora has already had is shot at the main Man, so he doesn't have to fight a nobody in America. Joe had to do it early on in his career to establish himself.

Regarding Hopkins, I think he just tried to take advantage, because he knew he could. I don't think he really wanted to go up to 168 at that point, unless he was going to get nearly all of the split. Like I keep saying Frank had no power whatsoever in negotiations of that type. It was Bernard's name that was going to sell the fight in America. But I've heard Frank say before, that he wanted Joe to go over, but he didn't believe in himself enough.

Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

mind readers in town :happy:happy:happy:happy:happy


where you been champ? :huh

 

Hi mate, another great reply. You've made some good points there. I'll reply back to you tomorrow. Thanks!

 

There's a reason Calslappy didn't come to the states. He would have been exposed, and quickly. He's a B, maybe a B+ fighter, even his most ardent fans know this, and they know damn well that regardless of their walls of text Roy would have embarassed and dismissed Calzaghe like it's just another routine day at the office.

How's that?

 

Objectively? RJJ KO calslappy.

 

Not gonna read the threads but the video of Calzaghe saying it would take the crown jewels to get him to fight Jones has been posted to this forum several times. That answer the question?

 

Bailey,

Hi mate, thanks for the reply.

I don't know a deal about Prince Badi, but yes you're right about Hanshaw being a prospect at the time. He was trained by Floyd Snr. But they were low risk tune up fights for him to take. They certainly weren't really impressive wins, that made people sit up and take notice. Surely nobody could have seen his Hanshaw fight, and thought, Roy's back to his best, he can win a World Title again?

I don't follow you regarding Hopkins? Who would have had a KO over Hopkins? Are you talking about the rematch with Hopkins and Roy?

Regarding DM, he did say that on the video. I've seen it a few times. Larry said that he was now willing to come over to The U.S. But shortly after, he changed his mind. None of us know what the terms were, so it's unfair to speculate, but something made him change his mind. I think the onus was on DM, because Roy was the best fighter in the World and he had three of the four belts. He said he would fight him anywhere but not in Germany, after what had happened to him in Seoul. It's a shame the fight didn't come off. But like I keep saying, in my opinion DM was happy doing what he was doing. If the injustice he suffered didn't motivate him to get his old belts back, then nothing was going to.

You're right about Otis Grant, he is of course Canadian. I watched his fight with Ryan Rhodes all those years ago. I'm from Sheffield. You're also right about him fighting at Middleweight. But what I meant was, he moved up to 175 to face Roy in his weight class for a shot at his belts, and he'd fought in America a few times. He wouldn't have had a huge following I don't think, but he was probably more known than Joe at the time. Also, he was obviously ok with Roy taking the lions share of the purse for the fight. Grant wouldn't have got a huge payday but he had the opportunity to fight the best fighter in the World, live on HBO in front of millions of people. Joe had that very same opportunity.

Obviously, we weren't in Joe's shoes, but you can look at Roy's demands two different ways I suppose.

1. You take it as a complete insult like Joe did, and you tell Frank to tell Murad to get F****d!

2. You turn to Frank, and you say "That offer's a joke! But I know I can beat him! Let's do it!"

Now it's a life or death sport and Joe had a family, so I'm in no position to say what he should have done. But 25-30% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

I don't blame him for not taking the offer, but I don't like how he insisted he wanted or deserved the Crown Jewels, when he didn't have Global Recogntion. I think he was arrogant there. He couldn't expect to bell well paid, when it was Roy's name that was going to sell the fight and the U.S. fans hadn't seen Joe. He was in no position to be asking for the Crown Jewels. I wonder what share of the pot Ricky got when he fought Floyd?

If Joe had've taken the fight and beaten him, just think how his career would have turned out? Also, if he'd have lost to Roy, but given him a hell of a fight, then they could have been calls for a rematch etc, which meant another payday. Also, he'd have showcased his talents to Millions of fans, and even in losing, it could have opened up more opportunity's to fight bigger names. He'd really only have lost out, if Roy had've destroyed him pretty easily.

In my opinion, I don't think Joe really wanted to fight Roy. I believe that deep down, he didn't think that he was good enough to beat him. That's only my opinion of course, and I'm willing to accept yours. But like I said yesterday, he seems like an intelligent guy, so he must have known that he wasn't in a position to ask for mega money against Roy?
Also, Frank was an astute Businessman, and he knew the American fans hadn't seen a lot of Joe, so he also can't have been surprised by Roy's demands at the time? It was totally unrealistic for both of them to think that they could negotiate for a big share of the purse.

Thanks for the reply, I'm really enjoyng the debate.

Regards, Loudon.