What is a realistic "p4p atg top 10" in your oppinion?

most of the guys you mentioned, but I just cant bring myself to include anyone who has little or no existing career footage.

 

So much fail in one post Welcome to the ignore list

 

...because it's a P4P list and not a H2H list?

It really depends on how highly you look upon Duran's career at LW on whether you put him in comparison to Leonard.

 

He did! :good

If you meant LHW, it's more than a consolation he beat the man who would hold it for a decade no fewer than 3 times in three meetings.

Nice piece, McGrain.

Even if he didn't beat one "ATG", the sheer number of rated fighters he beat would probably place him within the top five. Those are top ten fighters in an 8-division sport with a predominant single champion (occasional NBA/NYSAC split). How many top ten fighters today otherwise wouldn't be if crammed into 8 divisions and not the current 17? More than half, obviously. The sport is diluted.

And as it stands, Robinson beat 10 fighters who were inducted into both the IBHOF and WBHOF. If you're talking in terms of how good a fighter was then 1) What don't you like about Robinson and 2) That's an entirely different, far more subjective topic as McGrain pointed out.

I'm talking about achievement and what one accomplished in his own era. Beating the man in front of you, name of the game and all you can do as typically stated here, right? So what's the problem with Robinson as he did it to an astounding, almost incomparable extent? How many fighters would you clearly place above him and what's the case for it?

Here is the list of RING rated opponents Robinson fought. The ones in BOLD were rated at the time they fought Robinson. (credit to hhascup):

Boxer Weight 1st-Rated Last-Rated Months-Rated Best-Rating
Abrams, Georgie 160 1938/08 1947/10 055 01*
Angott, Sammy 135-147 1938/07 1946/04 081 00
Archer, Joey 160 1963/03 1967/05 051 01*
Armstrong, Henry 126-147 1935/01 1945/06 123 00
Barnes, Ray 160 1950/08 1953/02 018 04*
Basilio, Carmen 147-160 1953/06 1962/02 087 00
Basora, Jose 160 1942/09 1949/08 048 02*
Bell, O'Neill 160 1948/01 1948/05 002 07*
Bell, Tommy 147 1944/01 1949/02 051 01*
Belloise, Steve 147-160 1940/06 1950/06 096 01*
Berger, Maxie 135-147 1938/05 1944/02 033 05*
Burns, Charley 135 1935/07 1935/11 005 05*
Castellani, Rocky 160 1949/02 1957/02 059 01*
Castiglione, Nick 135 1941/11 1943/02 005 08*
Costner, George 147 1945/11 1951/02 032 01*
Curcio, Joe 147 1946/09 1946/09 001 10*
Delannoit, Cyrille 160 1948/08 1949/06 011 02*
Dellicurti, Vic 147-160 1939/12 1945/09 022 06*
Docusen, Bernard 135-147 1945/07 1950/10 050 01*
Downes, Terry 160-175 1960/09 1966/03 052 00
Doyle, Jimmy 147 1945/06 1947/08 019 02*
Dupas, Ralph 135-147 1953/09 1965/03 136 01*
Dykes, Bobby 147-160 1949/10 1956/02 033 01*
Fullmer, Gene 160 1955/08 1964/07 107 00
Fusari, Charley 147 1946/11 1952/03 049 02*
Gavilan, Kid 147-160 1948/01 1958/09 106 00
Ghnouly, Joe 130-135 1931/11 1936/04 031 05*
Giardello, Joey 160-175 1952/10 1968/03 152 00
Graziano, Rocky 147-160 1944/09 1952/10 083 00
Guggino, Carl "Red" 135 1937/02 1938/03 006 06*
Harrington, Stan 147-160 1963/09 1967/06 035 02*
Harris, Ossie 160 1945/09 1945/10 002 10*
Hecht, Gerhard 175 1953/03 1958/03 061 01*
Hernandez, Art 160 1965/11 1966/03 002 10*
Hernandez, Ferd 160 1966/12 1968/10 023 02*
Hudson, Cecil 147-160 1943/02 1947/12 006 02*
Jannazzo, Izzy 147-160 1935/03 1944/08 066 01*
Jones, Ralph Tiger 160 1953/02 1960/08 047 03*
LaMotta, Jake 160-175 1942/07 1953/02 121 00
Leahy, Mick 160 1965/01 1965/03 003 10*
Lee, Don 160 1984/04 1986/12 032 04*
Lello, Pete 135 1939/02 1941/04 016 03*
Levine, Artie 160-175 1946/05 1949/04 012 06*
Martin, Georgie 147 1941/01 1944/02 006 10*
Maxim, Joey* 175-200+ 1941/02 1956/09 148* 00
McDaniels, Jimmy 147 1943/06 1945/08 019 03*
Mims, Holley 160 1952/02 1960/06 057 02*
Motisi, Tony 147 1942/05 194304 009 06*
Moyer, Denny 147-160 1959/04 1972/06 099 01*
Nettlow, Al 135-147 1939/04 1943/02 006 08*
Olson, Carl Bobo 160-175 1949/08 1967/05 139 00
Pender, Paul 160 1959/06 1964/02 050 00
Quarles, Norment 135 1937/01 1939/02 012 08*
Rangel, Sheik 147 1943/02 1944/02 009 05*
Rindone, Joe 160-175 1951/06 1954/02 004 07*
Rubio, Norman 147 1941/09 1944/02 010 09*
Secreet, Sammy 147 1942/01 1946/08 006 06*
Servo, Marty 147 1942/02 1947/02 022 00
Shapiro, Maxie 126-135 1940/07 1945/02 018 03*
Stretz, Hans 160-175 1954/02 1958/02 019 02*
Taylor, Chuck 147 1946/06 1946/11 004 07*
Turner, Earl 147 1942/11 1948/09 011 04*
Turpin, Randy 160-175 1950/03 1958/02 065 00
Tygh, Jimmy 135 1939/02 1940/09 002 09*
Villemain, Robert 147-175 1947/09 1953/02 046 02*
Wade, Aaron Tiger 160 1945/12 1946/02 003 07*
Wallace, Frankie 126-135 1932/01 1938/02 020 02*
Wilson, Jackie (L.A.) 135-147 1940/01 1947/04 032 02*
Zannelli, Ralph 147-160 1938/02 1953/02 018 03*
Zengaras, George 135 1937/09 1939/11 007 08*
Zivic, Fritzie 147 1936/08 1945/08 095 00

 

^^That is impressive

 

Indeed.

Robinson is not routinely touted as a slam dunk Top 3 fighter of all-time because it's fashionable. He earned it.

 

That what confuses me:good

 

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Sam Langford
4. Harry Greb
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Roberto Duran
7. Mickey Walker
8. Sugar Ray Leonard
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Archie Moore

Just missing: Willie Pep, Manny Pacquiao, Roy Jones.

 

Cant be his resume list if Roy is just missing his top ten....no way...Roy is not scraping a top ten ATG listing based off resume...not even close.

 

skill wise and im just getting your perspective here not poking at anything....but how is Pac more skilled than Floyd?

Before anyone gets all bent out of shape im not saying Pac is not damn skillful...but the man has glaring issues and it shows at a larger scale when faced with skillful fighters.

 

that's how i see it in the nba. guys like barry or west were great in their time. but there are guys like t-mac or even ellis who are not so highly rated but i'm sure are much better players than either barry or west.

can't say the same for boxing as there has been minimal development as to how the sport is played. unlike with basketball, gameplay back then was very crude.

 

Plenty of people do, actually. SRL was an athletic beast in a similar mold as a Mike Tyson or Roy Jones; a Michael Jordan or Barry Sanders -- nobody really has any reasonable doubt he'd be successful today. He meets the quota supporters of 'modern advancement' set, added to the fact that his in-ring skills are elite. The difference is that he has a collection of top wins comparable to just about anybody, and that's easily a top ten fighter for a lot of people.