Roy Jones vs Calzaghe at their peaks. Objectively tell me...

My thoughts on RJJ has changed from Hating the guy (the only boxer I ever hated at the time) to feeling sorry for him. when he got outboxed and beaten by tarver in the first fight it was a clear sign he should have hung up the gloves. since then he has had is ass whipped by any half decent fighter . . . and getting KOed on the regular. I am glad that Joe (and others) knew when to call it quits . . . to often these guys do way more damage to themselves by continuing to fight and end up broke anyway. More needs to be done to help fighters manage their money, since they have such a short shelf life they need to learn to live within their means.

 

That was easy to expose you there and make you answer without me having to correct you and answer

 

Thats possibly your best quote ever Jasper

 

Unfortunately, I think it's the culture and environment that many fighters grow up in, that leads to their eventual bankruptcy. There's not much that can be done about that

 

Yeah you got me bruh, you a G. You're so good.

 

No thats not true, structures can be put into place to protect these guys in the short and the long run . . . but these guys get exploited and everybody is worried about how they can make as much money off them than anything else.

 

Half the time I just like busting your balls bailey. I am not a fan of Joe, Bhop, or Roy's but I do respect them. all their fans overrate them and you are by far the most vocal so you are an easy target (and joe is the easiest target for several reasons). did ya ever think about letting sleeping dogs lye? roys boys are not as vocal and it seems that people have gained more respect for him even though he gets KOed every time he thinks about boxing

 

Never for a moment did I think Joe was on roids, hence my initial comment.

@ Jasper: we feel the same way about Roy. I was happy when Tarver beat him, now I feel a little sadder every time RJJ takes a fight.

 

I don't think Mccallum was a world class operator at that point. Toney looked terrible in the 3rd Mccallum fight as well, both were out of shape. Mccallum was not a LHW, his prime was between 154-160, to put it into perspective, Mike was in his prime around the mid to late 80's. He was finished when he fought Jones, Roy beat the name, not the fighter. Similar to Danny Green beating Roy Jones.

He pushed Tarver hard in the rubber match. Whilst not the same fighter as before, Roy wasn't finished at that point. Many believed Roy looked rejuvenated in those bouts, and that gave him confidence going into the Calzaghe fight. Today Roy is completely finished, that's why you don't see him getting world title shots. Whilst Roy was clearly not the same fighter as before, much of it was down to Calzaghe's style and speed, giving Roy problems.

Griffin was a novice with no great LHW wins. (Toney had a terrible LHW and SMW resume). Darious also beat Griffin.

Roy fought Toney at SMW.

Darius beat Hill immediately before Roy did.

DM had a right to all of those titles, and he beat Virgil Hill before Roy did.

The only time Roy was a legitimate champion was when he beat Tarver, and he got stopped in the rematch.

You seem insistent that Americans don't need to travel. Then why isn't Wladimir fighting Tony Thompson in the US?

David Haye went to Germany to fight Klitschko and Valuev.

Roy Jones proclaimed himself as the best fighter on the planet, why didn't he want to prove it by facing DM? That represented a real challenge. It would have earned him more money, and enhanced his legacy far more than beating Lou Devalle. Please explain this to me, and no offence, but I don't want to hear 'all the money is in America, America is boxing's mecca' and so on. Roy would have earned more money, and enhanced his legacy further beating DM than Germany, than fighting Devalle, Grant, Frazier and so on in America. Furthermore, DM said he was willing to travel to America.

After beating Toney, he barely faced another world class fighter for the next 9 years. He was beating these cans, when better fighters were there to be made, that's the criticism.

Roy unified a much better LHW division? To unify the SMW division, Joe beat Eubank, Lacy and Kessler. To unify the LHW division, Roy beat Devalle, Johnson, Mccallum.

Eubank > shot Mike Mcallum
Lacy arguably > Devalle
prime Kessler > Johnson

With the recent events of Peterson and Berto, it is evident that extensive drugs testing is becoming more and more important in boxing. Now, the likes of Mosley, Marquez, Ortiz and Cotto have had no problem with taking the test, none of them ever complained. In fact, they all agreed that the test was important. Why did Pacquiao refuse? What was the problem? Bob Arum doesn't want to let Manny go anywhere near Floyd, he knows Floyd would embarass him.

Floyd is greater than Roy. At age 35, even though he's clearly diminished, Floyd is still dominating, and is still number 1.

 

Yet they still debate on. Seems the NHS isnt doing such a great job on mental health issues.

Calzaghe is basically at Robin Reid level or more likely just below him skillwise, B to B+. Thats pretty good because prime Reid was a skilled technician, but he lost his mindset too early. Zaghes had the better mindset and judgement of when to fight and not to fight, and was a bit fitter than Reid, he could slap forever.

But yeah, the best guy Zaghes ever fought was Reid, whom he found he was on equal footing with.
The best guys Roy Jones ever fought were prime ATGs Toney and Hopkins who he made look like amateurs. There is a MAJOR difference between beating silly two ATGS and being equal to a fairly good champ like Robin Reid. For ****s sake, ATG means Hagler, Leonard etc.

 

I see your point, so basically you're saying Roy wouldn't have fought Joe, because he had his eye on a bigger payday in fighting Ruiz for £17 million instead. That's fair enough, so you agree that Joe wanted the fight, and Roy didn't (regardless of reasons). Therefore, Joe shouldn't get abused for 'avoiding prime Roy', when the fight couldn't be made, for reasons out of Joe's hands.

But Roy still could have made 168 in 2008, which proves he still could have made it in 2002. It also shows that the weight loss is exaggerated, if Roy could get down to 168 comfortably years later (remember he fought Trinidad at 170).

Didn't DM say he was willing to travel to America to fight Roy?

As I stated above, if the fight didn't happen because Roy could make more money fighting Ruiz, then fair enough. So the point stands that Joe wanted the fight, Roy didn't.

My point comes down to this, you can say that Joe didn't pursue Roy to the ends of the earth like Tarver and Collins, fair enough. However, if you look at the fights Roy was making against complete no-hopers, then a fight against Calzaghe makes perfect sense. If Roy didn't fight Joe to face better fighters fair enough, if he didn't fight Joe to make more money then fair enough, but around that time he was fighting the likes of Clinton Woods, Glenn Kelly, Derrick Harmon, complete no hopers who didn't do anything to earn a shot against Roy.

Kessler was a champion, undefeated and in his prime, and a big name in the division going into the fight with Joe.

Joe pulled out of the fight with Johnson for injury reasons. He agreed to fight the winner of Sheika-Johnson, Johnson lost. He agreed to fight Johnson if he beat Woods, Johnson lost.


Sorry for the late reply :good

Also finally Loudon, you're from Sheffield, what do you think of Kell Brook?

 

Hi mate,

Thanks a lot for the reply, I know you've been busy, so I really appreciate it.

You're right about McCallum, he was definitely finished when Roy fought him, but I think he was in better shape than Roy, when he fought Green. Did Toney fight him 3 times? I know they fought twice.

Roy did look ok in the 3rd Tarver fight, and I think it was a victory for him, just going the distance. He had a great 5th round. But his fight with Joe was over 3 years later, and that's a long three years when you're only fighting once a year in your late 30's.

Of course Joe's speed and style caused Roy problems, but the fight in my opinion was pretty meaningless. It just had Tyson vs Lewis written all over it. I'm not knocking Joe's skills, and despite me having a go at him on here, I've got a ton of respect for him. But I can't forget what he said in his book. Then after the fight he called himself "The Legend Killer" which I thought was pretty pathetic to be honest.

Regarding DM, he was a good fighter, and he beat the same fighters Roy did, and he had a right to all of the belts. I agree. But Roy said he wouldn't fight in Germany, because of what had happened to him in Seoul. DM was apparently going to go to The U.S. and then for whatever reason he pulled out. We don't know the terms or any real details, but he had two negotiations and didn't end up going. I don't think you can blame Roy for the fight not coming off. Like I keep saying to Bailey, surely the injustice he suffered, would have made him determined to go over and fight for his old Belts? I think he'd got it cushy in Germany defending his Belt, and he was happy doing what he was doing.

I don't think American's have ever needed to Travel. Times are changing now, and The K Brothers have put Germany on the map. But they hold all the cards now. Becasue America hasn't got a big named World Champion, and The K's have the belts. So they're now in a position to dictate where they want to fight. If the K's didn't have a belt, they would have to go to The U.S. like they did earlier on in their careers. There's no way back in 2003, that Vitali would have fought Lennox in Germany.

They weren't all cans that Roy fought. Yes he fought some, but everybody does. We've discussed his fight with Frazier before. He gets a load of abuse for that, and rightly so, but Frazier was a mandotary, and then in the next fight he fought Reggie Johnson. HBO wanted him to fight Telesco, he fought him, and then he got abuse for it. He fought Gonzalez who wasn't a can at the time, and Harding who had beaten Tarver. Harmon and Kelly were cans, and then he fought Woods, who wasn't great, but he certainlt wasn't a can. Woods was also his mandotary. Then he fought Ruiz, then Tarver. You make out he fought a long list of Cops and dinnerladies etc. It's one of the most common misconceptions. Also as I've just mentioned, he would have fought DM if Daruisz had have gone over to The U.S.

So I agree he fought bums, but he fought and beat some good fighters, that went on to do good things after he'd beaten them. There's people on here that say Glen Johnson was a very good fighter and that's how he was able to beat Roy. Glencoffe Johnson had three life and death fights with Clinton Woods. Then the same people dismiss Roy's 6th round win over him, by calling him a complete no hoper. They also say Gonzales was a mexican roadsweeper. If you question how he beat DM, they say DM was at that point shot to ****. It's all double standards. Woods, Harding, Gonzalez were not bums. They weren't great fighters, but they certainly weren't cans, and anyone that thinks otherwise has no respect for Boxing.

You make a good point about the SMW division and LHW division. But it took Joe 9 years to do it. The LHW division in my opinion was stronger, especially if you include DM. It's such a shame Roy didn't fight him.

You'll have to correct me if I'm wrong regarding this, because I haven't been paying much attention to the ongoing problems with Manny and Floyd. I got bored with it a long time ago. The last I heard was, Manny agreed to all the testing, but it was the cut off date they couldn't agree on. He was criticized for saying giving blood weakened him. People were pointing out to the various tattoos he's got. But Manny in his defence said, he had them done in his personal time and not before he did any training. He said he was happy to be randomly tested but not two weeks before the fight. He said that was a crucial part of camp and he didn't want to be weakened.

He also said they could test him straight after the fight had finished. That's what I thought was the latest? Again if I'm wrong, please correct me. That's my take on it. He hasn't refused the test, he just didn't want to give blood in the last couple of weeks. If that is true, then where's the problem? I think Floyd is putting up every obstacle he can, becasue he doesn't want the fight. Like I said to you last week, after Marquez gave Manny a close fight (a lot of people thought Marquez had won) nobody from the Mayweather camp mentioned anything whatsoever about Steroids. Because Floyd had beaten Marquez easily, it gave him the confidence to call Manny out. If Manny had've beaten Marquez easily, then you would have heard the same accusations coming out of Floyds camp.

If Bradley wins in a few weeks, nobody mentions Steroids. If Manny wins convincingly, then all The Mayweathers will start shouting again. I think they're a joke! Floyd calling himself the Greatest of all Time, is an insult to the great fighters of the past.

I think Roy at his absolute peak at 25/27 was better than Floyd. But I respect your opinion. Nobody knows what's going to happen in the future. Floys might fight into his late 30's, early 40's and get beat a few times, like Roy, and that might sway peoples opinion, we don't know.

Thanks for the reply, great debate.

 

Joe shouldn't get abused for avoiding Roy, But he should when he's adament that he chased him for five years and he was desperate for a fight. In 2002, Yes Roy wasn't bothered because he'd got bigger fish to fry. But I think Joe could have tried to get a fight with him earlier by doing more than just getting Frank to make a few calls. Ricky chased Floyd, Collins went over, Tarver crashed his press conference, they chased a fight.

Also, how bad did Joe want the fight, when he said he'd only fight him for the Crown Jewels? He was never in a position to demand anything like that. I think he knows deep down that he wasn't good enough to beat him.

I'm not saying Roy couldn't go down to 168 in 2002, but at the time he didn't want to, because he knew he was going to go up to around 190 very soon. That's why he wasn't that bothered about the Hopkins rematch. If Bernard had have been willing to accept the terms, he'd have made the sacrifice, but if not, he wasn't too bothered. In Roy's eyes, a fight against a Heavy, was a bigger fight than a rematch wth Hopkins. He already had a win over him, he didn't need it. In 2008 he was willing to come down to 168, because at the time, he didn't have any intention of fighting any higher than 175.

This whole Cruiserweight quest that he now has, is just an excuse to prolong his career. I'm sure if you'd have asked him in 2008 about fighting at Cruiser for a Title, he'd have dismissed it straight away. He could have fought at Cruiser before or after Ruiz, and he never gave it a seconds thought.

We've covered the DM issue.

A fight against Joe could have been a big fight, if Joe had've been bigger in the States. Then there'd have been a global demand for the fight, and they would have been huge money involved. But Joe wasn't known that well, and he didn't want to go up to 175. If he'd have been willing to go up to 175, and he hadn't have demanded the Crown Jewels, and he'd have been prepared to go over to America, the fight could have happened. But at the time, it wouldn't have been seen as a huge fight.

You mentioned Woods, Clinton was a mandotary. If Joe had've fought up at 175 earlier on his career, instead of starving himself to make weight at 168, Joe could have found himself in the same position as Clinton. But as I mentioned last week, if i'd have been Frank, my plan to get Roy in the ring, would have been to try and get Joe a fight with DM. Then they'd have had some power, and something to negotiate with. They might have been obstacles, nothing is ever easy in Boxing, but it's not beyond the realms of posibility, to think that Joe could have moved up the rankings at 175 and then fought and beat DM. I think DM would have fought him at home, and Joe would have been willing to go to Germany, he'd done it before.

If Joe had've had the only belt at 175 that Roy didn't have, and he'd have been willing to go to The U.S. that fight would have been a big fight, and he'd have probably have been paid his Crown Jewels.

Did Joe really pull out of the Glencoffe Johnson fight three times through injury, or was it a psychological problem?

We know he tried it on before the Lacy fight, and Frank got angry and talked him out of it. That isn't speculation, that has come directly from Frank. So the question has to be asked, If he tried to pull out of the Lacy fight, did he really chase Roy, and believe that he could beat him? I don't think so.

I like Kell, he seems a really nice down to earth lad, a few of my mates have met him. He's a great Boxer, and I'm looking forward to the Carson Jones fight.

Thanks for your replies, i've really enjoyed reading them.

Regards, Loudon.

 

I'm talking about in 2004 when Johnson was the IBF lhw champ. Calzaghe using the dubious Woods loss as a reason not to fight Glen is silly.

In 2004 Calzaghe agreed to move up and fight Glen Johnson who was the ibf lhw champ.
During the week of the fight Calzaghe would pull out claiming a domestic dispute. The fight was pushed back a week. During the lead up to the fight Calzaghe would pull out claiming some kind of injury. The fight would get pushd back a month. During the lead up to the fight Calzaghe would pull out claiming a back injury.
Johnson said he was tired of getting messed around and waren had to fork out around 100k for Johnson wasted time.

Johnson was robbed. A number of Calzaghe's opponents were coming off recent losses but Calzaghe still fought them

Styles make fights and Johnson fights nothing like Kessler.

Calzaghe faked the hand injury to try and get out of fighting Lacy. It is only when Waren told him his career would be done if he pulls out that he stopped pretending to be injured.

He became a much better fighter at lhw.
He gave Tarver all he could handle
Beat Dawson and was clearly robbed during their first fight
Koed Jones(atg)
Stylewise would of been a bad matchup for Calzaghe

Was Jones overhyped back then? Sure he was, but that doesnt make him a bad fighter.

????????
He was ranked by the Ring when he was at lhw