Question:Why some have Rocky overJack?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by burt bienstock, Jun 5, 2012.


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  1. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Very cute m. But no cigar...I see through your attempt at sardonic humor...Did Rocky Marciano have to struggle for his damn meals as a youngster. ? Well Jack Dempsey did and to bring up the Fireman Jim Flynn
    fight when it was most likely a "dive" for eating grub,as his wife testified in court. In any case ONE year later Dempsey under his new manager Jack Kearns, nourished properly flattened JIM fLYNN IN one round..fOR YOUR INFO.
    P.S. would Don Cockell last NINE rounds with the prime Dempsey ? Hell NO...
     
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    #61
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That's interesting, why do you say that? Given that most sources have Greb struggling for weight against Walker and the weight issue was part of the reason Walker was favoured early, what is your source for this being his natural weight?

    Without a title on the line, Greb only weighed in under the MW limit once after 1924 and was weighing as much as 166 in 1919. MOST of Greb's fights were over the 160lb limit, he tended to come down ONLY when the title was on the line. His "true fighting weight" is the weight he fought at the most, not the weight he had to force himself to fight at.

    And what was Carpantier's "True fighting weight?" An ex flyweight he was taller than Greb but on average, his career weight is lower.

    If it's OK for him to fight Carpantier, it's nonsense to say it isn't alright for him to fight Greb, most especially because Greb's HW resume is better.
     
    McGrain, Jun 6, 2012
    McGrain, Jun 6, 2012
    #62
  3. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Mc, A fighter in his weight division is what he entered the ring at...Greb from 1924 had many fights at MW with johnny Wilson, Frank moody, Ted Moore,Tiger Floweres twice, Mickey Walker, each where he made 160 pounds. You mention Georges Carpentier,who at almost 6 feet was much taller than the 5ft8" Harry Greb who at 170 was nowhere as fast as he was at 160 pounds...Carpentier at the Dempsey fight was at about 175 pounds sleek as a racehorse...Most every older fighter has to "force' himself to make the weight limit for a title fight...Why split hairs, Dempsey was at 187-9lbs was a very big man for his weight.
     
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    #63
  4. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    ahh, the good old days of heavyweight challengers...

    no need to fight a 6 foot 4, 215 Negro who punches like a mule kicks when you can go at it with a French pastry former bantamweight...
     
    Seamus, Jun 6, 2012
    Seamus, Jun 6, 2012
    #64
  5. Hands of Iron

    Hands of Iron #MSE Full Member

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    Honestly shocked that you're selling Harry Greb short here. Your loyalty to Dempsey is deeper than I could've possibly imagined. Take a break.
     
    Hands of Iron, Jun 6, 2012
    Hands of Iron, Jun 6, 2012
    #65
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yes.

    And many more where he was light heavy weight. He fought MORE fights above MW than he did at it at the time the Dempsey fight was mooted.

    What is this based upon?!

    And Greb, too, carried weight in excess of 160 without difficulty.

    1) Greb did better at HW than Carpantier

    2) They were both comfortable at around 172

    Arguing that Greb was to small to meet Dempsey is asinine.

    Train down it's called, and yes, most fighters do it, but your claim that Greb was "a 160lb fighter" when he could have met Dempsey at 170lbs easily, whilst Carpantier, who lifted his first title at flyweight is somehow a more valid opponent seems a little disingenuous.

     
    McGrain, Jun 6, 2012
    McGrain, Jun 6, 2012
    #66
  7. byron87

    byron87 Active Member Full Member

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    Marciano batters him.
     
    byron87, Jun 6, 2012
    byron87, Jun 6, 2012
    #67
  8. RockysSplitNose

    RockysSplitNose Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Watch this - Marciano never saw the day when he could move like Jack Dempsey could - never in a million years - it has to be said absolutely catergorically that Jack Dempsey, whoever you think would've won, was the vastly more versatile fighter - in my mind Dempsey has amazing feet brilliant footwork for the type of fighter he was - and really in terms of anyone outside of Muhammad Ali and Gene Tunney for me the way he moves around, the speed of him on his feet, the changes of direction the shifts the ability he shows on film at his best in terms of his quickness on his feet and his ability to move backwards fast and in and out fast and laterally fast and to circle back around quickly combined with his crouching difficult to pin down elusiveness and the way he exploding forward with his lightning handspeed - its his footwork which makes him able to fight in ways that Marciano just couldn't - I think Dempsey was miles faster on his feet and just had more versatile movement even than say, an Ezzard Charles, and at his lithe tigerish best would've been easily as quick going after say Gene Tunney as Tunney himself was at running away - i really don't see anyone really to much faster on there feet than Dempsey outside of Ali and Tunney and maybe Corbett - yep read that again - and that includes Charles, Walcott, Patterson, a 208 Holy or anyone else you care to mention - look at the guy - for the type of all aggression fighter he was known as he was ZIPPING AROUND THAT RING AND FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES TRYING TO LAY A DECENT GLOVE ON HIM SEEMED TO BE LIKE TRYING TO SWAP A SUN BEAM - HE WAS ENDLESSLY MOVING!! This just gets so totally overlooked by so many he just moved AMAZINGLY well - will add more thoughts tomorrow as its late now but just enjoy - and honestly LOOK AT THE WAY THE GUY MOVES AROUND THAT RING - WHETHER THATS GOING ON THE ATTACK OR BACKING OUT OF RANGE OR LOOKING FOR ANGLES ETC

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ[/ame]
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eha9nEcrMqQ[/ame]
     
    RockysSplitNose, Jun 6, 2012
    RockysSplitNose, Jun 6, 2012
    #68
  9. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    Oh goodness I've been caught...:oops:


    .

    Was somebody injecting his nutrition intravenously? I really don't know Bert.



    Using the excuse of " eating ****" to take the verdict of a sporting event to court.. Hmmm.. Dempsey ( or his wife I should say ) was very inventive indeed.
    Of course he wouldn't. Didn't you know that in order to last beyond 5 rounds with a champion, you had to sit on your ass for 3 years and work as a rodeo star, before showing up and getting pummeled with a loaded pair of gloves?!?!?!?! And to think that Dempsey stopped men of that description in less than 4...Burt, I must say that I am quite surprised that we're having this discussion.. I thought you were a student of the old school, but apparently you were born just in time to see the release of star wars...


    Thank you for taking the time to do an absolutely splendid and commendable service to society for providing me with a seldomly shared and little known nugget of knowledge on the great Jack's rematch against the very formidable Fireman... I suppose the reason I missed it was perhaps that Jack's handlers had the results of the second encounter hidden so that it would look like Dempsey was THAT MUCH GREATER when he defeated Willard, without even having to avenge the loss to the incredibly talented Flynn..... You're awesome Bert......
     
    mr. magoo, Jun 6, 2012
    mr. magoo, Jun 6, 2012
    #69
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    Where was the ferocious, feral panther with lightning reflexes and dancer's legs when this guy was in the ring?

    This content is protected
     
    Seamus, Jun 6, 2012
    Seamus, Jun 6, 2012
    #70
  11. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Rocky, HOW DARE YOU UTTER THE TRUTH ? These naysayers who hate dempsey and deny his tremendous speed and agility for a heavyweight
    in spite of these revealing clips of Dempsey WORKING out with one of his sparring partners Big Bill Tate showing his great movement of foot and
    bob and weaving, as quick as any middleweight...What heavyweight combined such speed and power in history ? None I say...The revisionists
    always cite the 32 year old Dempsey of the Tunney fight who hadn't fought in THREE DARN years,when trying to prove their point that he was slow, unskilled, easy to hit, overated and a stiff...This Dempsey who whatever the reason hadn't fought in three years, and without a TUNE-UP fight,
    took on a razor sharp prime Gene Tunney ...Compare the Dempsey of your clip sparring with Bill Tate with the old, slow rusty Dempsey of the Tunney fight. At 32 Dempsey of the Tunney fight was Dempsey in name only...
    Like Ray Robinson ,after ONE tuneup fight getting his ass whipped by the journeyman Ralph Jones in 1955 after a 3 year layoff.. But Robby's bad showing is never brought up by the Dempsey detractors when comparing Robinson H2h with other great middleweights. For a damn good reason. That Robinson was not the prime Robbie of his great prime...The naysayers have no film of the young tigerish Dempsey, who flattened Fred Fulton in less than a round. No film of flattening Big Carl Morris, in a round. No film of Jack flattening Gunboat Smith, no film of Dempsey koing Billy Miske, no film of Dempsey koing Battling Levinsky. Somehow these quick kos of Dempsey is overlooked or conveniently forgotten by these posters who claim to be objective...Like the Bermuda Triangle, these Dempsey victims
    were kod by a heart attack, and not the victims of the prime Dempsey...
    So Rocky, you are in big trouble lauding the prime Dempsey so accurately and true...One more point. I still believe more in the opinions of the great boxing fraternity of fighters, writers and trainers who saw the Manassa Mauler wreck havoc in his prime, than the the posters of today who delight in demeaning a great fighter and decent man, Jack Dempsey...Take care
    Rocky and watch your back...:good:good:good
    Addendum...they say Jess Willard was a bum. I doubt it, but I do know that his chin was iron, and he was never floored before meeting Dempsey.
    Yet Dempsey at 187 pounds having to punch UP at the 6ft6"Willard wrecked havoc on the giants jaw and should have had a ko before seven knockdowns, in the first round...But how do the Dempsey detractors account for the fact that the murderous punching prime Joe Louis hit lumbering Abe Simon with EVERY punch in the book for THIRTEEN rounds
    BEFORE the referee stopped the bout. Does anyone think Abe Simon would have lasted a few rounds with the vicious punching Dempsey of HIS prime?
    Nay I say..Double standard for Jack Dempsey who thank heavens was appreciated by everyone and feared I might add, by people who saw him before his 3 year layoff. Cheers R.
     
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    #71
  12. Hands of Iron

    Hands of Iron #MSE Full Member

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    What? :lol:
     
    Hands of Iron, Jun 6, 2012
    Hands of Iron, Jun 6, 2012
    #72
  13. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Sir, laugh all you want ! Logic and truth fail you ?
     
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    #73
  14. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Seamus "fat boy' was able to beat Sam Langford in 4 rounds...Oh I see S, that doesn't count ! What say you to this ? You know darn well that Meehan was a spoiler who was difficult to hurt and win in a 4 round bout...
    And you must also know that many great fighters were behind after 4 rounds in their regular bouts...So again give Dempsey the shaft, if it makes you feel good...Oh well...
     
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    burt bienstock, Jun 6, 2012
    #74
  15. Hands of Iron

    Hands of Iron #MSE Full Member

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    What does Robinson have to do with "Dempsey detractors"? The two situations aren't remotely comparable. And neither are Robinson and Dempsey. Not resume, not skills, not greatness, not anything. Who cares about Tunney schooling Dempsey? It's about color lines, a #1 contender in waiting for six years, a three year deep freeze whilst "champion", Greb being a wholly viable challenger to the title. Guy sat on it for three years and he's the victim?
     
    Hands of Iron, Jun 6, 2012
    Hands of Iron, Jun 6, 2012
    #75
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