Question:Why some have Rocky overJack?

Webbiano · Jun 8, 2012

burt bienstock said: ↑

Greb who I love has nothing to do with the equation...I was responding to a post saying how "koing Willard meant nothing". Well it did to a Dempsey who droppedthe massive Willard so many times when Willard was never DROPPED ONCE BEFORE ...This baloney of Dempsey cannot be great' despite the thousands of boxing people who saw him at his best, because
he did not fight a Harry Wills, THOUGH THEY SIGNED, and a small MW Harry Greb...What if he did sign Greb and kod him [most likely] what would the Dempsey brigade of naysayers say then ? I have said many times before that Ali fought the best crop of contenders, BECAUSE they were FIGHTING at THAT Time...No doubt. And Dempsey whatever faults you think he had as a fighter beat in his prime everyone before him by a handy margin... This B.S. that he was a "fairy tale favourite son", reeks of baloney, because until Dempsey's loss to Tunney in 1926, Dempsey was
terribly disliked because of never fighting in WW1...So though Dempsey was
considered a "slacker " for many years of his prime, EVERYONE of the day including SAM LANGFORD recognized a great fighter in the ring though a
SLACKER in WW1.?...To butress your aversion to Dempsey, at least spout the truth...Whatever choices Jack Kearns and Tex Rickard made guiuding Dempsey's carreer doesn't mitigate the fact that Jack Dempsey was a GREAT HEAVYWEIGHT, and history bears this out...
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Another top post on how Dempsey does against Marciano prime for prime ... Oh ... never mind

KuRuPT · Jun 8, 2012

burt bienstock said: ↑

Since I started this thread i cannot neglect my duties to correct your nonsense...It is so apparent that you have no idea of what a prime Dempsey accomplished once he met Jack Doc Kearns...Though sir, you don't want to read this, the truth shall prevail...Before Willard's destruction Dempsey flattened a Carl Morris, a Fred Fulton, a Gunboat Smith,
a Billy Miske, a Battling Levinsky. a Bill Brennan etc, all in short order and some over 220 lbs..Than he, as we know gave the 260 pound Jess Willard a frightful beating in Toledo.
Willard ,whatever his faults, was NEVER FLOORED before in his life, had an iron chin
and though he was 37 at the time had very few bouts as he started at a late age...
For the 187 pound Dempsey ,having to punch up at the giant Willard to reach his chin with great power was quite a feat whether you in your bias , likes it or not....
as posted before the great power puncher at his peak, Joe Louis hit lumbering Abe Simon with every punch in his arsenal for THIRTEEN rounds, before the referee stopped the bout with Simon on his feet, protesting the stoppage...Why does Louis not get cticized for not koing Abe Simon before rd 13, while a reviled [by you and some posters]Dempsey
always get;s the SHAFT. ? Do you sir know how Dempsey looked when he was at his peak
flattening 25 fighters in the 1st round.? Hell no you don't...Are you more capable of
determining Dempsey's place in boxing history more so than a Sam Langford, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Mickey Walker, Ray Arcel,and hundreds of boxing experts who saw him ringside at his best, and in two polls voted him the best heavyweight they had ever seen, by a wide margin .??? And dont give me that nonsense
their opinions mean squat...I would stake everything I have that these great boxers and writers, knew just a smidgen more than you ! Seeya...
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There are so many Red Herrings in here I don't know where to begin.. SERIOUSLY... Jesus... I really need to see how object you'll be before continuing...

1. Do you believe Dempsey AT ALL benefited from a period of time where writing looked more like poetry... some what like the bible to some, who view it is figurative writing not literal writing...Do you think this was true of the time period?

2. Building on 1... Would it be fair to say that Dempsey was a little overrated when he was champion .. while Marciano wasn't underrated when he was champion? Is that fair?

3. In terms of resume... Who has the better one The Rock or Dempsey?

As I've told you before Burt.. I like you.. I do.. You're a benefit to this forum with your knowledge and insightfullness. The problem is, I think your mind is clouded by your heart when it comes to Dempsey and Greb. As i've relayed to you before.. My grandfather, till the day he died, said Dempsey was the best fighter that ever lived. He lived through the age of romantic writing that Dempsey grow from.. He believed everything he heard on the radio and what was read to him about Dempsey. He believed no fighter on earth could beat Dempsey because of said writing and broadcasting.. Guess what my Grandfather was BLIND and he still believed that. I'm not blind nor in the tight grip of nostalgia that precludes me from viewing his fights nor his resume. Neither of which stacks up favorably against the Rock imo.

janitor · Jun 8, 2012

PetethePrince said: ↑

Well, on a style basis I'd say probably neither does. I thought I did in the post you're replying to. But if I didn't. Lower center of gravity, better puncher, more durable, better conditioned. Basically Dempsey has to take him out early. I guess it's feasible Dempsey beats Marciano to the punch and batters him but it seems incredibly unlikely considering Dempsey's own flaws and vulnerabilities in regards to reckless and defense, particularly considering how open he was to Marciano's best punch... a right hand.
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I don't see this fight lasting long one way or the other.

I am not giving Dempsey a stylistic advantage based on him being more powerful or durable, or even having better defence, though defence would probably play a part.

I am basing it on the premise that Dempsey is a pure finisher who specialises in speed finishing, while Marciano is an atrittion finisher. The guy who gets the most damage done in the first few rounds is going to have the advantage.

Errrrr no. Now, if you believe this then you somehow have to believe Marciano is exponentially better in the chin, stamina, and IQ department considering he had take so many more punches than Dempsey. This of course all depends on whether you believe his defense is more polished. For a fighter that has his detractors for having such bad skin (Grossly overstated, may I add), Rocky never had to have someone walk him across the ring to shake his opponents hand because both of his eyes were closed shut. Yeah, that Dempsey was over the hill. I can list the other versions if you really like.
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I think that Marciano's defence is verry under rated, though I would have to rate Dempseys the finer.

Marciano probably did have the better chin in absolute terms.

Marciano weathers in early storm and batters Dempsey with heavier artillery, and more overwhelming activity.
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Here is my problem.

I have a hard time imagining anybody who went toe to toe with Dempsey weathering the early storm, unless they got him first.

You make it sound like this is forgone.
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I am certainly not suggesting that, but somtimes in a 60/40 fight it is prety darn obvious who the 60 is.

How did Marciano handle a more conventional brawler coming after him like Rex Layne? Yes a very very poor man's Dempsey.
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Verry well.

And primarily because he had better in close defence!
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burt bienstock · Jun 8, 2012

KuRuPT said: ↑

There are so many Red Herrings in here I don't know where to begin.. SERIOUSLY... Jesus... I really need to see how object you'll be before continuing...

1. Do you believe Dempsey AT ALL benefited from a period of time where writing looked more like poetry... some what like the bible to some, who view it is figurative writing not literal writing...Do you think this was true of the time period?

2. Building on 1... Would it be fair to say that Dempsey was a little overrated when he was champion .. while Marciano wasn't underrated when he was champion? Is that fair?

3. In terms of resume... Who has the better one The Rock or Dempsey?

As I've told you before Burt.. I like you.. I do.. You're a benefit to this forum with your knowledge and insightfullness. The problem is, I think your mind is clouded by your heart when it comes to Dempsey and Greb. As i've relayed to you before.. My grandfather, till the day he died, said Dempsey was the best fighter that ever lived. He lived through the age of romantic writing that Dempsey grow from.. He believed everything he heard on the radio and what was read to him about Dempsey. He believed no fighter on earth could beat Dempsey because of said writing and broadcasting.. Guess what my Grandfather was BLIND and he still believed that. I'm not blind nor in the tight grip of nostalgia that precludes me from viewing his fights nor his resume. Neither of which stacks up favorably against the Rock imo.
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k, One more time . I too like most everybody on ESB...
1- I am sorry your grandpa was blind..Saying that he was, therefore his liking Dempsey was not valid because of his blindness, doesn't alter the FACT that thousands of knowledgeable boxing experts who SAW Dempsey ringside and OTHER fighters after Dempsey, and RAVED about him WERE NOT BLIND...My dad saw Dempsey as a young man train several times
and would tell me how fast and hard he punched was NOT BLIND...He and others were products of a time so much tougher than you K ,could imagine and were a hell of a lot more in touch with reality than you ACCUSE them of....
2- It galls me to hear this garbage spouting from today's revisionists,
who try and try so freakin hard to discredit so, so, many great boxers, writers, trainers who saw Dempsey at his best , and marveled from ringside of his considerable prowess, and SAY as you post, that these people somehow were less skilled in evaluating Jack Dempsey, then you and other
posters on ESB, EIGHTY years later....To hear you say that my dad and his contemporaries lived in a "romantic" age and weren't as qualified as todays
pampered pups, make my blood boil...
I am a Civil War buff, and I read of the Civil War era from myriad's of
historians and I get a sense of the era from those people who lived at that terrible period of killings, and I KNOW these eyewitnesses know a hell of a lot more than I do today...And I also have faith that the vast consensus of boxers, writers and trainers of Dempsey's era and AFTER ,who saw him ringside at his best know just a tad more than you and your fellow
Dempsey naysayers do....Of that I'm convinced K...Cheers...

KuRuPT · Jun 8, 2012

So you couldn't address any of my questions... Okay then... No place really to go from here... I thought they were very basic and easy questions to answer.. I guess you just couldn't bring yourself to do it eh burt...

PetethePrince · Jun 8, 2012

janitor said: ↑

I don't see this fight lasting long one way or the other.
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Well fantasy fights generally go the distance or last long. Maybe that's a case of respecting the fighters... maybe most of these fights wouldn't last all that long. I honestly don't see Dempsey finishing Rocky inside of 4 rounds. I don't see the alternative either.

I am not giving Dempsey a stylistic advantage based on him being more powerful or durable, or even having better defence, though defence would probably play a part.
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I agree Dempsey's defense would greatly cost on him here. Oh, that's not what you meant.

I am basing it on the premise that Dempsey is a pure finisher who specialises in speed finishing, while Marciano is an atrittion finisher. The guy who gets the most damage done in the first few rounds is going to have the advantage.
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Yes, only in those first few rounds. Only if that beating is sufficient enough to slow the opposing fighter down or finish him altogether. I am convinced on the merits of Dempsey's specialties in speed finishing in regards to top class HWs, particularly durable ones like Marciano. And let's be frank, Dempsey could punch but nearly all those men got up on footage. Being quick to finish Firpo, Williard, or Fulton doesn't overly impress me. Yes, Jack is dangerous early. I understand your point here, nevertheless.

I think that Marciano's defence is verry under rated, though I would have to rate Dempseys the finer.
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Marciano's defense was a lot more rooted in stance. Dempsey fought more out of a half-crouch. He was far more susceptible and open to right hands because of this. If you want to talk defense then we should talk the specialties of their defense. In this case, Dempsey's weakness plays right into Marciano's best hands.

Marciano probably did have the better chin in absolute terms.
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Of course he did. I'm glad you can admit this.

Here is my problem.

I have a hard time imagining anybody who went toe to toe with Dempsey weathering the early storm, unless they got him first.
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So you also favor Dempsey against someone like Joe Frazier, then? I know it's a different fight but on this sort of a premise, surely the dynamic remains largely intact in your belief and style favoring of Dempsey in these sort of fights.

Honestly, it's a fair assessment. I just think the reverse is equally true in regards to Marciano which makes the fight all the more alluring. Goldman believed a younger Joe Louis would've always lost to Marciano because of this. That is another topic altogether, though.

Dempsey honestly looks far more vulnerable in toe to toe fights than Marciano. Firpo dropped him once on film... supposedly there is a version where he's dropped twice. Then we know how many times Dempsey was down against Sudenberg. And of course the Fireman Flyn incident. Honestly, Marciano just seems so much more suited for a war of attrition... a toe to toe battle.

I am certainly not suggesting that, but somtimes in a 60/40 fight it is prety darn obvious who the 60 is.
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I feel that way about Marciano here. I might even label it a 70/30 contest I'm that confident in him.

Verry well.

And primarily because he had better in close defence!
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Shouldn't that be a rather important factor & advantage in a toe to toe fight like this?

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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dpw417 · Jun 8, 2012

Hands of Iron said: ↑

That's because I don't have the nerve to outright predict a Tyson win based on Ali's far greater opposition defeated. Tyson has a lot of holes in his case for greatness, but his talent is something I won't ever sell short. He could beat anyone. Too bad for him he didn't get the majority of his legacy fights when he had the necessary ability and skills to perform.

In regards to the Foreman stuff, it's based on a few sources poster ironchamp dug up:

1st offer was for $5,000,000 in 1990.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...95/1/index.htm

2nd offer was for $20,000,000 in 1991.
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/...1991-markarian

3rd offer was $15,000,000 with a winner take all that could total $80,000,000 in 1995.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_17445393/

4th offer was for $20,000,000 in 1999.
http://boxing.about.com/gi/dynamic/o...man/index.html

Although that fourth link may be dead.

I'd be inclined to add: physically stronger, better counter-puncher, superior combination punching, finishing ability, one punch KO power. :yep

With Tyson in fantasy fights, it seems like if he doesn't KO his man then he stands little chance of winning. There's evidence for it, but he took his share of decision wins in his prime years and some by wide margins. His aggressive style, fast hands and ability to slip punches are feasibly just as effective at outworking, outlanding and outpointing opponents as they are for knocking them senseless -- and at the very least jumping out to a wide lead for when his work rate inevitably begins to slow down. Fights like Tucker and Smith are often pointed out as failures when they were hardly even close.
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That's fair i wouldn't pick Tyson over Ali for the same reason...The level of competition is wide...also with that said, I would pick Tyson over Frazier on a best day versus day scenario...But I wouldn't discount Frazier's shot at beating Tyson at all...especially if he lasts past five or seven...

I'd be inclined to add: physically stronger, better counter puncher, superior combination punching, finishing ability, one punch KO power.:yep
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But you might want to consider that Frazier was a much better inside fighter, had much better stamina, physical strength? it's Tyson but not much of a gap...better counter puncher? Not that conclusive...superior combination puncher? Yes. But Frazier's workrate eclipses Tyson's combinations...Finishing ability? Yes slightly.. how does that theory hold up after Tyson's opponents go some rounds?...One punch power? Yes. Edge to Tyson. I would add that Tyson's speed in getting off (namely that right uppercut) is what gives Frazier trouble.
As far as Foreman avoiding Tyson??? I'll put much more stock in this article than all four of yours!
www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/lotierzo1609.php

burt bienstock · Jun 8, 2012

KuRuPT said: ↑

There are so many Red Herrings in here I don't know where to begin.. SERIOUSLY... Jesus... I really need to see how object you'll be before continuing...

1. Do you believe Dempsey AT ALL benefited from a period of time where writing looked more like poetry... some what like the bible to some, who view it is figurative writing not literal writing...Do you think this was true of the time period?

2. Building on 1... Would it be fair to say that Dempsey was a little overrated when he was champion .. while Marciano wasn't underrated when he was champion? Is that fair?

3. In terms of resume... Who has the better one The Rock or Dempsey?

As I've told you before Burt.. I like you.. I do.. You're a benefit to this forum with your knowledge and insightfullness. The problem is, I think your mind is clouded by your heart when it comes to Dempsey and Greb. As i've relayed to you before.. My grandfather, till the day he died, said Dempsey was the best fighter that ever lived. He lived through the age of romantic writing that Dempsey grow from.. He believed everything he heard on the radio and what was read to him about Dempsey. He believed no fighter on earth could beat Dempsey because of said writing and broadcasting.. Guess what my Grandfather was BLIND and he still believed that. I'm not blind nor in the tight grip of nostalgia that precludes me from viewing his fights nor his resume. Neither of which stacks up favorably against the Rock imo.
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Oh now I'm on the witness stand Kurupt...?
You say I CAN'T face the questions...?
1- I've answered your silly point in my prior post...You sir are implying falsely that the fighters, trainers, and writers of Dempsey's time were "poetic" ,not realistic and living in a dream world...Tell that to Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Grantland Rice, Hype Igoe, Damon Runyon and company. You do not know what the hell you are talking about and THERE I have answered that question...
2-You say I should agree with you that Dempsey was overated by his peers when he was champion ? Tell that to the 50 or so fighters he flattened...
So I will not agree that during his title reign, he was "overated"...O'K ?
3- You ask me in terms of resume who hade the better opposition ? Fair question AT LAST ? Marciano's only top opposition was against a Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Ezzard Charles...All great fighters iun their youth, BUT all these guys were in their twilights of thgeir careers. Charles was 34, and Walcott about 38, and the former LH champ Archie Moore was FORTY years old when he faced the prime Marciano...They were all name fighters past their bests... Aside from those three fighters, Rex Layne was the next best fighter whom I saw a couple of times prior to the Marciano bout...Dempsey, flattened BIG guys like Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Bill Brennan, Billy Miske, Battling Levinsky, outboxed a clever Tommy Gibbons, and past his peak Dempsey kod a prime Jack Sharkey who at this time in his career was probably as good as the old trio of past primes, Walcott, Charles and Archie Moore who were long in the tooth when they met Marciano...So I say Dempsey's opposition was at least comparable to Marciano's opponents without doubt...Taking into consideration that Walcott, Charles, and Moore were OLD MEN when they faced Rocky...
Now tell me sir, what BIG heavyweights did Marciano flatten as big as Dempsey's kos of Morris, Fulton, Willard and Firpo ? None except a Johnny Shkor, in 1950....So I answered your question K, whether you agree or not.
One other thing , to me a fighter can only beat the fighters of his times.
They can't pick the date of their bith...Most important to me who has followed boxing for so long is STYLES of each fighter. And I who saw Rocky Marciano ringside and in training at Grossinger's, NY, and was in awe of his power and bulldog determination, when picking between A prime Jack Dempsey and a prime Rocky Marciano, go along with the VAST majority of EXPERTS who saw them BOTH, choose Dempsey by a knockout because of his far greater speed that will catch Rocky to the punch and anyone Dempsey [pre Tunney] hurt he kos...And contrary to your thinking I go along with the overwhelming experts who saw them both..They knew what they were talking about POETRY aside...Cheers.

Hands of Iron · Jun 8, 2012

dpw417 said: ↑

That's fair i wouldn't pick Tyson over Ali for the same reason...The level of competition is wide...also with that said, I would pick Tyson over Frazier on a best day versus day scenario...But I wouldn't discount Frazier's shot at beating Tyson at all...especially if he lasts past five or seven... But you might want to consider that Frazier was a much better inside fighter, had much better stamina, physical strength? it's Tyson but not much of a gap...better counter puncher? Not that conclusive...superior combination puncher? Yes. But Frazier's workrate eclipses Tyson's combinations...Finishing ability? Yes slightly.. how does that theory hold up after Tyson's opponents go some rounds?...One punch power? Yes. Edge to Tyson. I would add that Tyson's speed in getting off (namely that right uppercut) is what gives Frazier trouble.
As far as Foreman avoiding Tyson??? I'll put much more stock in this article than all four of yours!
www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/lotierzo1609.php
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I don't think Foreman avoided him, I think he brought extra attention to himself by repeatedly calling Tyson's name out. He didn't want to deal with King, which makes the fight an impossibility considering Tyson was DKP property from 1989-97. The Lotierzo column (and it is a column) loses credibility to me by his utter inability to keep from shooting his wad over how scared he thinks Tyson was and how easily Foreman would crush him. Some of the things he writes are downright laughable (Tyson's speed a non-factor. Really?).

Looking at his history with Tyson columns, it's not too surprising.

dpw417 · Jun 8, 2012

Hands of Iron said: ↑

I don't think Foreman avoided him, I think he brought extra attention to himself by repeatedly calling Tyson's name out. He didn't want to deal with King, which makes the fight an impossibility considering Tyson was DKP property from 1989-97. The Lotierzo column (and it is a column) loses credibility to me by his utter inability to keep from shooting his wad over how scared he thinks Tyson was and how easily Foreman would crush him. Some of the things he writes are downright laughable (Tyson's speed a non-factor. Really?).

Looking at his history with Tyson columns, it's not too surprising.
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Fair enough...but seriously you think the articles you chosen are better? Yeah right! Just cause a boxing guy's opinion opinion doesn't jibe with yours, about how a style match up works (or doesn't?) and it's laughable...****...Everybody's got their opinions.Foreman/Tyson would be a tear up as long as it lasted. I'll just say that if anybody thinks it's a walk through on either side, that they would be mistaken. No way, very tough fight...and I would pick Foreman to back Mike up and stop him.

Clinton · Jun 9, 2012

Vic-JofreBRASIL said: ↑

Dempsey was faster AND had a better footwork IMO.......
And I don´t think Marciano was the harder hitter like many here.....
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:goodOtimo avatar,cara!!!:good

janitor · Jun 9, 2012

PetethePrince said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Well fantasy fights generally go the distance or last long. Maybe that's a case of respecting the fighters... maybe most of these fights wouldn't last all that long. I honestly don't see Dempsey finishing Rocky inside of 4 rounds. I don't see the alternative either.
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Without any disrespect to either fighter, I would expect this deal to be closed in 8 rounds or less.

Yes, only in those first few rounds. Only if that beating is sufficient enough to slow the opposing fighter down or finish him altogether. I am convinced on the merits of Dempsey's specialties in speed finishing in regards to top class HWs, particularly durable ones like Marciano. And let's be frank, Dempsey could punch but nearly all those men got up on footage. Being quick to finish Firpo, Williard, or Fulton doesn't overly impress me. Yes, Jack is dangerous early. I understand your point here, nevertheless.
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Just look at the damage Dempsey was inflicting on hios opponents.

Saying "this come forward fighter would weather the early storm to take control late in the fight" is probably unrealistic.

Marciano's defense was a lot more rooted in stance. Dempsey fought more out of a half-crouch. He was far more susceptible and open to right hands because of this. If you want to talk defense then we should talk the specialties of their defense. In this case, Dempsey's weakness plays right into Marciano's best hands.

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I think that Dempsey had the better head movement, and that might be an important factor.

So you also favor Dempsey against someone like Joe Frazier, then? I know it's a different fight but on this sort of a premise, surely the dynamic remains largely intact in your belief and style favoring of Dempsey in these sort of fights.

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I would give Frazier less chance against Dempsey than I would Marciano.

Dempsey honestly looks far more vulnerable in toe to toe fights than Marciano. Firpo dropped him once on film... supposedly there is a version where he's dropped twice. Then we know how many times Dempsey was down against Sudenberg. And of course the Fireman Flyn incident. Honestly, Marciano just seems so much more suited for a war of attrition... a toe to toe battle.

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I don't think we should make a major play out of fights that happened early in either fighters careers for obvious reasons.

Dempseys critics use the Firpo fight to bash him, but actualy Firpo was a big durable guy and Dempsey was bouncing him off the canvas like a ping pong ball.

There wasn't much in that fight to suggest that weathering the early storm was a good idea.

My point is that Dempsey was not a figfhter that you could aford to take a lot of punishment from.
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he grant · Jun 9, 2012

I go back and forth on this one all the time ... it is a nasty fight .. I honestly feel it could go either way ... on paper you would think the faster starting Dempsey with better two handed power could put a real hurting on Rocky and I really feel he has the skills to do so but and it's a huge but ... Jack was not the smartest guy in ring history ... he tended to go kamikaze when hit and hurt ... if he did this with Marciano somehow I just image Rocky slamming home one of those Rex Layne style overhand rights and putting the Mauler to sleep ... if Dempsey fought with his head in a controlled rage I feel he could beat both Louis and Marciano .. he really potentially was a cruiserweight Manny Paq sort talent wise but I don't think he ever fully got there ... if he fought Marciano like he did Firpo ... balls to the wall, brains up his ass, I just see Rocky ending this one with a sledgehammer of a shot ... Dempsey had more talent but Rocky maximized his skills and throwing caution to the wind and trading with him unless your the much bigger man is not wise ... just my gut ..

Pachilles · Jun 10, 2012

Without reading the thread, has burt...

1) Said 'naysayers' atleast 5 times?

2a) Name dropped Nat Fleischer?

2b) And thousands of boxing writers?

3) Taken atleast 5 differing opinions as insults?

4) Insinuated in so many words that we today are lesser beings than back when men were men?

5) Excused Dempsey's inactivity with the title of a Ricky Martin song?

6) Crushed the myth that Dempsey didnt face black fighters, with the fact that he signed for one?

6) Threatened to leave the forum, in a fashion that subtlely invites people to beg him to stay?

Legend X · Jun 10, 2012

Pachilles said: ↑

Without reading the thread, has burt...

1) Said 'naysayers' atleast 5 times?

2a) Name dropped Nat Fleischer?

2b) And thousands of boxing writers?

3) Taken atleast 5 differing opinions as insults?

4) Insinuated in so many words that we today are lesser beings than back when men were men?

5) Excused Dempsey's inactivity with the title of a Ricky Martin song?

6) Crushed the myth that Dempsey didnt face black fighters, with the fact that he signed for one?

6) Threatened to leave the forum, in a fashion that subtlely invites people to beg him to stay?
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The only thing more repetitive and tired than burt's old 'Dempsey routine' is Pachilles' tired old 'has burt said?' or 'cue burt to say ..' post. atsch

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