Carlos Monzon (Ripped by Sports Illustrated)

Monzon:

Technique - 5
Speed - 5
Power - 6.5
Defence - 6

Not very impressive there. They happen to be quite noticeable facets of the game, unfortunately. On the flip side:

Durability - 9.5
Composure - 9.5
Timing - 9.5
Stamina - 9.5
Strength - 8.5

For all his technical shortcomings - because let's face it, he was messy - Monzon was very comfortable in the ring, never bothered by anything, and stuck to a game plan with an exceptionally constant work rate.

As I see it, superior athletic talent can be broken down this way. Because he wasn't going anywhere. Had both strength and range. Durability and stamina. Composure and determination.

Add homing missiles for fists and you're hard pressed finding a more favourable middleweight in the head-to-head stakes.

More notes...

Never seen a fighter recover so quickly after taking such hard shots; Briscoe II round nine & Valdez II knockdown, plus various other shots that didn't even get a response.

Monzon's doggedness in carrying out a strategy - more like doing his normal thing - must have worn opponents out and befuddled them mentally. A solid work rate coupled with a messy approach and slow, pawing punches interspersed with accurate bombs. Hard to deal with. Can't really hurt him. Brushes off nearly everything. Wins most exchanges, a lack of fear allowing him to trade freely. Won't get tired. Stays at range, saps energy inside. An intimidating prospect, don't care if you're Roy Jones or Harry Greb.

 

I'm so sick of these neophyte observations on fighters, compartmentalizing attributes like jab, speed, power, et. al that supposedly can be tabulated to equal a fighter's worth.

Firstly, the observations I see here at patently false and reveal more deficiency in the observer than the subject. Such as, Monzon had a slow, pawing jab. Not near as good as Zab Judah's I imagine. When in fact, Monzon used the pace and speed of his jab like an American baseball pitcher, switching up speed, angle and distance to create and exploit openings. Some here would prefer the Ike Quartey method of throwing the same punch in the same manner with the same distance, speed and power until the opponent learns to time and counter and exploit. Monzon was more an interrogator with his jab, searching for holes in the opponent's fistic story, just enough to change the fight with his own power when the time was correct.

Secondly, there is more poetry to the game that such Philistine equations of speed plus power plus footwork plus equal anything. There are Championship attributes, among the most important being an ability to adjust and the ability to make the fight play out by your rules. A speedy fighter or a power puncher does not win at the Championship level merely because he is fast or a stout puncher, but because he makes the fight play out on his own terms. Monzon was a master of this. He controlled distance, pace and the entire means of engagement. He was less a full frontal engagement fighter than a toreador, fighting around his opponent's edges to control all aspects of what manner the contest would play out. Power punchers were largely stifled; slicksters were battered and put off balance.

I know, it's heady stuff, but consider rather than your prole equations of excellence that something else was behind such a sterling record.

 

More comments from me:

- I think in just about every Monzon fight, it's his. There was never a necessity to adapt, he simply fought, shaping his opponent. Contributing factors; height plus strength, and durability backed up by indifference.

- Everyone should watch Monzon-Briscoe II several times. It's a glimpse of him at his peak before he was shot. Punch placement, as well as variety, shines through.

****ing hell, my keyboard is playing up, takes about fifteen minutes to type one post...

Oh yeah, compartmentalising is fine if you know where the line is.

 

:deal Oh yes..he moved constantly on the back foot and threw every punch in the book, and not just 1-2's. it was a master performance, especially after surviving getting clocked he traded with Briscoe in the final 5 rounds.

 

Yes, that's it! Monzon decided to avoid Valdez until after the auto accident. That explains it.

 

The wrong thread for this post..sorry.:tired

 

Please allow an apparent "neophyte" and possible "deficient observer" to respond. If such adjectives are what merely disagreeing with you merits us.

A Hagler, Leonard, RJJ, Nunn, McCallum, Hearns, Duran, etc., not to mention a SRR, Zale, and several others, simply wouldn't let Monzon dictate the rules of engagement. Carlos could do so as he did because his competition was so weak. Yes, that includes Briscoe, who was KO'd brutally by the very limited Valdes (whose own lifetime KO record was about 33%).

 

I'm obviously no Monzon fan, but the above is an excellent, well-thought-out, nuanced, and balanced post.

 

Senor Pepe',

Far be it for me to argue with you and another fine post of yours. But to this one, I'd mention that Mundine was not a great fighter, far from it. AND, I take everything fighters say after a fight with a grain of salt, especially the loser. One such post-fight comment I give more creedence to is that from Emile Griffith, who, after fighting Monzon the first time, said Monzon's punches had little power and didn't hurt him. This was a Griffith WAY past his prime fighting a Monzon right in his prime.

Your point abut Carlos's strength is not lost on me. But the idea that he just walked through punches, well, he was dropped by others, and they weren't exactly Hagler or Robbie-esque.

Hey, I won't argue Monzon's obvious success; my problem is this notion some have that he was simply unbeatable . . . that in a fantasy fight, Monzon at 160 licks Mike Tyson at 215 or something. It's hero-worship and denial of reality to the extreme. Monzon went deep into fights, that he won, admittedly, with inferior opposition. Guys that Robinson might have sparred with but who never would have earned a shot at him in a real title fight.

 

lol and you talk about hero worship of Monzon?

Monzon could not go back in a time machine to fight these alleged monsters that Robinson apparently destroyed, he could only fight & beat the competition in front of him which he did consistently unlike SRR at MW (Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin, Pender the losses when counting only his title fights at MW & excluding the non title losses).

Monzon & SRR did have Denny Moyer as a common opponent. A past his prime 41 year old SRR went 1-1 with him losing a UD when Moyer was 22/23 & a 30 year old Monzon KO'd him in round 5 when Moyer was 32/33.

Who said Monzon licks Tyson?

Now you are just making stuff up, not even the biggest Monzon fan here (red cobra) ever made such an absurd claim.

People have Monzon as the best MW of all time or in top 3, very few have him beating Tyson especially when he never moved up in weight (just like Hagler by the way).

I think Greb & Fitzsimmons could have beaten him at MW.

That you are not a Monzon fan was obvious when you brought up his out of the ring behavior as if SRR was clean as roses, what do you call a man who beats a pregnant woman so badly she miscarries several times?

 

You can see how little Monzon punches hurt Griffith when he is squatting on the ropes covering up and not returning fire. And Monzon was dropped early in his career and then by Valdez who was clearly not half the puncher Fullmer, LaMotta, Levine, or Tommy Bell were.

 

"lol and you talk about hero worship of Monzon?" - What could this possibly mean? I evidence no hero-worship of anyone, why do you write something so out of left field as if I'm guilty of what others here clearly are guilty of. Whom do I worship?

"Who said Monzon licks Tyson?" - I was being figurative. Just the fact that some have him as the best MW of all time or top 3 is absurd, but that's where many experts have him, too.

"Monzon & SRR did have Denny Moyer as a common opponent. A past his prime 41 year old SRR went 1-1 with him losing a UD when Moyer was 22/23 & a 30 year old Monzon KO'd him in round 5 when Moyer was 32/33." - What is the point of bringing up a 41 y.o. Robbie? Yeah, Ali at nearly 40 lost to Trevor Berbick too. And that proves . . . what?

Monzon could not go back in a time machine to fight these alleged monsters "that Robinson apparently destroyed . . ." - Agreed. But Monzon's quality of competition (mediocre) should be a factor when calling him a master who is the top MW of all time or near that, no? Same for Larry Holmes and whoever else.

Why do you have a problem with Monzon being called the murdering thug that he was? Others I know hate him for that though they think he's the greatest MW boxer ever. That you'd think his crimes are equal to Robinson hitting his wife (which is terrible, inexcusable, and criminal, and I sure as hell am not excusing a bit of it) seems a stretch. Monzon was a murderer, literally. It doesn't affect my judgment of him as a fighter in the least.