If Ward had of fought Bute before Froch beat him...

Lampley · Jun 23, 2012

bailey said: ↑

they were not in the same division with common opponents and also Bute had been a longer belt holder etc

Not trying to boost his credentials, but was pointing that against common opposition in the same division, Bute had looked more dominant and had been a longer belt holder.
Calzaghe was a one fight LHW and Pavlik a MW with no common opposition of note that springs to mind. Whilst Bute was a belt holder in the same division looking more dominant against common opposition wth as many top 10 SMW victorys if not as good as the names Kessler/Froch.Not in disagreement. Though I would note when he was lucky first time with Andrade, Andrade was #3 SMW and 2nd time was #5.
No he had no victories with their names, but at SMW neither does Dawson.
Different weight divisions. Not sure what you dont see in that.
Bute was a longer belt holder in the same division. Pavlik was a newish MW champ and Calzaghe a new LHW. No common opp to compare against
So when your arguements get swallowed in debate you call someone a troll. Got it.
Pavlik was a MW. Calzaghe a SMW. Terrible 2 division bigger mismatch. Instead of
- SMW champ vs SMW champ
- Longer reigning SMW champ vs more accomplished SMW champ
- more dominant looking SMW champ against common opp vs less dominant looking SMW champ against common
Both in the same division where they were looking to make a name each not 2 divisions apart
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You're retreating to the same two points, easily dispatched:

1) Bute was not a "SMW champ." Only a troll or a fool would argue that today's belts carry legitimacy. Just look at some of the belts' top 10 rankings as proof. Bute was a high-profile contender without a great win, bottom line.

2) Common opposition is meaningless when that opposition is less than A-level. It's only marginally meaningful if the opposition *is* A-level.

You're actually arguing that Bute merited a Ward fight more than Pavlik merited Calzaghe because of Bika and Miranda. Take a breather and think about that one for a second. Bika and Miranda kingmakers!!!

At the point Ward defeated Froch and Kessler (among the others), he placed himself profoundly ahead of Bute, who loomed as the No. 1 contender in part by the attrition the Super Six exerted on his competitors. For that reason Bute loomed as intriguing but unproven, hence the reason Ward balked at an immediate fight.

Pavlik and Calzaghe are very close in size, and JC easily could have fought at 168. I didn't really care about that fight, either, but unlike you I'm consistent. Calzaghe and Ward turned down a big money and legacy fight due to what they perceived was an overrated opponent. Both were proved correct, were they not?

And yes, you are a troll. Your resume cherry-picking, double standards and generally daft approach to conversation stain you red. Embrace it, sir.
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reed_man02 · Jun 23, 2012

bailey said: ↑

No disputing, but he had made more defenses of that paper title and held it longer.
Remember Kessler and Froch only won vacant belts before Ward fought them.

I believe its 2 each
When Bute got lucky over Andrade 1st time Andrade was #3, 2nd time they fought #5.
Both Kessler and Froch were top 5 and rated higher, but in answer to your question, to my knowledge 2 each
You know we were talking pre Froch. I would have thought you would have worked that out by the thread title and first page.

Bute in my opinion looked better against Bika than Ward did.
Looked better against Miranda than Ward did

At that time Bute looked better against Johnson and Magee than Froch did, and we are talking pre Froch/Bute
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U make the mistake I rate fighter based on how long they've held a paper title, I dont. Both froch and kessler had proven themselves against much better competition than bute.

Kessler completely shut out andrade. Andrade being top 5 proves it was a weak division and bute needed hometown cooking to get by him. It was obvious to all bute still had a lot to prove when andrade is his best win.

I apologize, forogt about the timeframe. Nonetheless, how you beat sub par competition is irrelevent. What matters is how you perform against top competition. Ward had dominated the best the division had to offer while butes best win was andrade. Nuff said.
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flashy k.o · Jun 23, 2012

bailey said: ↑

No disputing, but he had made more defenses of that paper title and held it longer.
Remember Kessler and Froch only won vacant belts before Ward fought them.

I believe its 2 each
When Bute got lucky over Andrade 1st time Andrade was #3, 2nd time they fought #5.
Both Kessler and Froch were top 5 and rated higher, but in answer to your question, to my knowledge 2 each
You know we were talking pre Froch. I would have thought you would have worked that out by the thread title and first page.

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if this fight was fixed ??! if all parts made some good $ ??!! :think

its curious how a guy (Bute), that beat Bika who's a spoiler-dirty-tough fighter that gave Ward a nightmare fight and he ( Bute) beat Johnson and Magee better than Froch, got destroyed / brutalized by the slowly-widely Froch ??:think
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reed_man02 · Jun 23, 2012

flashy k.o said: ↑

bailey said: ↑

if this fight was fixed ??! if all parts made some good $ ??!! :think

its curious how a guy (Bute), that beat Bika who's a spoiler-dirty-tough fighter that gave Ward a nightmare fight and he ( Bute) beat Johnson and Magee better than Froch, got destroyed / brutalized by the slowly-widely Froch ??:think
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In all sports, the great ones have their best performances on the big stage.
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bailey · Jun 23, 2012

Lampley said: ↑

You're retreating to the same two points, easily dispatched:

1) Bute was not a "SMW champ." Only a troll or a fool would argue that today's belts carry legitimacy. Just look at some of the belts' top 10 rankings as proof. Bute was a high-profile contender without a great win, bottom line.

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He was a belt holder, a longer belt holder than Ward, Kessler, Froch at the time.
Before Bute, Froch hadnt beaten any A level SMWs.
As for top 10 ratings, most of the time Bute was considered Wards top contender

2) Common opposition is meaningless when that opposition is less than A-level. It's only marginally meaningful if the opposition *is* A-level.

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Froch hadnt beaten a A level SMW and had only won vacant titles. So what, does that detract from Wards win?

You're actually arguing that Bute merited a Ward fight more than Pavlik merited Calzaghe because of Bika and Miranda. Take a breather and think about that one for a second. Bika and Miranda kingmakers!!!

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No never said that. This is you trying to alter the subject when being schooled.
I wrote and read carefully now so you dont make the same mistake

Calzaghe was a LHW and Pavlik a MW.
With the Ward/Bute situation, Ward was/is considered the best at SMW but Bute was also in the same division and was #1, had looked better against common opposition, held a belt longer in the same division, had as many wins over top 10 SMW opposition

Do you get that?

At the point Ward defeated Froch and Kessler (among the others), he placed himself profoundly ahead of Bute, who loomed as the No. 1 contender in part by the attrition the Super Six exerted on his competitors. For that reason Bute loomed as intriguing but unproven, hence the reason Ward balked at an immediate fight.

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Then why did Ward then say he wanted after Bute was signed to fight Froch. You will have to explain that to me now as you have answered for Ward in your last sentence

Pavlik and Calzaghe are very close in size, and JC easily could have fought at 168. I didn't really care about that fight, either, but unlike you I'm consistent. Calzaghe and Ward turned down a big money and legacy fight due to what they perceived was an overrated opponent. Both were proved correct, were they not?

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Kessler was Calzaghes #1 and Calzaghe fought him. Pavlik is a different division. It would have been like Calzaghe saying at the time Kessler needs to fight someone else. It wouldnt have looked great and would have denied Calzaghe a big win over a fellow SMW champ. That was the situation with ward and Bute to clear up. Pavlik wasnt a clear up, he was a different division 2 lower.
Kessler was a SMW clear up, as Bute would have been for Ward

And yes, you are a troll. Your resume cherry-picking, double standards and generally daft approach to conversation stain you red. Embrace it, sir
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Now more insults from you, when you know that I picked out the differences in what you were trying to prove.
Do I call you a troll for trying to say a fight between 2 fighters 2 divisions apart is not the same as 2 fighters in the same division who were belt holders? No I dont insult you
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flashy k.o · Jun 23, 2012

bailey said: ↑

No, what I wrote was would it have been considered Wards best win if he had of beaten undefeated Bute, after the S6.
Froch and Kessler were previously beaten fighters and in Frochs case an older SMW.
Bute was an undefeated SMW who had most of the time looked a very clear winner.

I do think it would be competitive between Ward/Bute due to styles making fights, but that wasnt what I asked no.
I said

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Definitely YES but , but due Bute's big hype !

Reppin501 · Jun 23, 2012

PetethePrince said: ↑

It only is if your swept up in bull****.
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So you think Bute is tougher fight than Dawson? If so YDKSAB, IDGAF what weight, where the fight is etc...Dawson is far more accomplished, more skilled, prime, nothing negative about this fight.

Reppin501 · Jun 23, 2012

turbotime said: ↑

Oh god atsch yes because Dawson is black is because he isn't as good a win as an unbeaten Bute, to unify the division would have been.
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IDGAF if they fight @ 160 beating Dawson will be far greater than beating Bute, any time or any weight. When you see Dawson walked through and destroyed (by anyone) the way Bute was we can talk, until then fact remains Dawson entirely different level.

bailey · Jun 23, 2012

reed_man02 said: ↑

U make the mistake I rate fighter based on how long they've held a paper title, I dont. Both froch and kessler had proven themselves against much better competition than bute

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I dont rate a fighter on how long they have held a title at all and have said before how R Reid and R Woodhall who had less title defences had better SMW resumes than Bute, so dont say what I do when you do not know.
Kessler had definately proven himself against better comp. With Froch Im not as totally convinced but wouldnt argue it too much. The reason I say that is because people like J Taylor were 1-2 in their last 3 fights and no SMW resume of note.

Kessler completely shut out andrade. Andrade being top 5 proves it was a weak division and bute needed hometown cooking to get by him. It was obvious to all bute still had a lot to prove when andrade is his best win.

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Andrade wasnt top 5 when Kessler beat him, but was some time later when Bute fought him, which as you note shows how much weaker SMW has become. I noted that before when you look at 2005 to today. Andrade had a win over Steiglitz which as you note shows it got weaker
Heres an old post showing how the division got weaker. Obviously bits have altered now with Froch beating Bute

Its not stronger at all. Once you remove Bute and Ward there isnt a great deal. Just look at today compared to 05

Back then there was in 2005

1. Calzaghe undefeated world champ (best SMW resume ever)
2. Kessler undefeated world champ (undefeated and not suffering double vision)
3. Lacy undefeated world champ (undefeated with a better resume than most of the current SMWs)
4. Beyer (3 time WBC champ with a better resume than most of the current SMWs)
5. Mundine (2 time WBA champ)
6. Danny Green who became a world rated CW and had a fair SMW resume
7. Siaca (former world champ)
8. Grant (former WBO MW champ)
9. Reid (former world champ, and fighter that looked unlucky against Ottke and who beat Magee when undefeated, who is now WBA int champ)
10. Andrade (undefeated at this time and looked unlucky not to KO Bute years later and beat Steiglitz)

Now today you have

Champ.
Andre Ward whos biggest win is 05 #2 Kessler

1. Bute whos biggest win is who? Maybe Berrio or possibly WBA int champ Magee who Reid #9 in 05 beat years previously when undefeated
2. Froch who has lost to unwell 2005 #2 when unwell and coming off a loss
3. Steiglitz who lost to 2005 #10 Andrade
4. Oousthuizen, who has he beaten thats up there with like some of the 2005 fighters?
5. Bika who is rated so high now by doing what? Beating Manfredo, because I cant think of a bigger win tha he has and Bika lost to 2005 #1 Calzaghe years previously and couldnt beat Soliman at first ask who was clearly beaten on more than one occassion by Mundine 2005 #5
6. Groves, whos biggest win is a MD over 10 and 0 DeGale whos big win was P Smith. groves has only had 14 fights and although doing well in a short career is given a big status for little.
7. G Johnson who was a SMW journeyman who couldnt compete at SMW. Johnson has lost more fights than won at SMW and now with his biggest win of Green coming off a loss and well in his 40s he is a top 10 SMW atsch I could show you the form line of who Johnson lost to and then show you how it compares to 05 but I think you get the point.
8. Dirrell whos biggest win is?? Abraham maybe who cant compete with top SMWs or Oganov possibly. Who has Dirrell beaten for his rating?
9. Abraham. Now it is looking bad. Abraham cant seem to compete with fair SMWs and gets not just beaten but almost shut out, even by Froch who is slow and doesnt have a good workrate. Abrahams big SMW win is Taylor coming off a KO loss
10. Rodriguez. Tell me who he has beaten then?

You would even struggle to say yeah but the fights didnt happen then because they did. Calzaghe beat Lacy and Kessler as well as Reid. Kessler beat Beyer, Mundine and Siaca. Beyer beat Green as did Mundine and Siaca beat Mundine etc.

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The division is more hyped now because an American is doing well in there, but he seemed gassed against Froch and I dont think would be doing as well in 05, but thats another debate

I apologize, forogt about the timeframe. Nonetheless, how you beat sub par competition is irrelevent. What matters is how you perform against top competition. Ward had dominated the best the division had to offer while butes best win was andrade. Nuff said
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The time frame was part of it, as it showed that Bute had a paper title for a while before Ward was recognised.
At MW you have a fighter like Pirog who holds a paper belt, hasnt beaten anyone of note, yet it would still be a top MW match up if he fought Martinez.
In the case of Ward and Bute, Bute had far more defenses, against better opposition than what Pirog has done, and there was common opponents to compare where Bute looked the better.
So yes It would have been a big match up and I think would have been Wards best win as Froch and Kessler had suffered defeats and Froch was on the older side at SMW
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bailey · Jun 23, 2012

flashy k.o said: ↑

if this fight was fixed ??! if all parts made some good $ ??!! :think

its curious how a guy (Bute), that beat Bika who's a spoiler-dirty-tough fighter that gave Ward a nightmare fight and he ( Bute) beat Johnson and Magee better than Froch, got destroyed / brutalized by the slowly-widely Froch ??:think
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I guess this is the styles make fights thing.
Thats why I think due to styles Bute and Ward is still a top match up, though has lost its lustre now Bute has lost to Froch

bailey · Jun 23, 2012

Reppin501 said: ↑

So you think Bute is tougher fight than Dawson? If so YDKSAB, IDGAF what weight, where the fight is etc...Dawson is far more accomplished, more skilled, prime, nothing negative about this fight.
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Who did Dawson beat at SMW? What is comparable SMW resume to Butes?

bailey · Jun 23, 2012

flashy k.o said: ↑

Definitely YES but , but due Bute's big hype !
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Wont argue with that :good

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