My top 10 Heavyweights of all time.

Tyson dominated at HW while Holyfield dominated at CW.

Tyson knocked out Berbick, Thomas, Biggs, Holmes (HOF), Tubbs, M. Spinks (HOF), Bruno, and Williams (he also decisioned Smith and Tucker) before getting knocked out by Douglas.

Meanwhile...

Holyfield decisioned Qawi (HOF) and knocked out Qawi (HOF), Ocasio, Parkey, and DeLeon (HOF) before...

moving up to HW and knocking out Tillis, Thomas, Dokes, Rodrigues, Stewart, Douglas, and Cooper (he also decisioned Foreman (HOF) and Holmes (HOF)) before losing a great fight to Bowe by decision (who he beat a year later).

Yes, Tyson knocked out Holmes but... Holmes had not fought for 2 years or won a fight in 3 prior to taking on Tyson. Holmes also did not prepare well for Tyson IMO... he recorded a freaking album during training camp!

When Holmes fought Holyfield he had had won 6 fights in a row including a near shut out vs. a previously undefeated Ray Mercer.

IMO, you have to put Holyfield above Tyson... oh yeah plus Holyfield went 2-0 (1) vs. Tyson. Sure, many will say Tyson was a little past prime vs. Holyfield... so was Holyfield. Holyfield was supposed to get killed by Tyson, people actually thought he'd be seriously injured and teh fight opened at 25-1 odds for Tyson!!!

 

Don't forget about Ruddock (x2) who was rated just under Champ Holyfield and #1 Tyson. Why the ratings? Demonstration of a division clean-out. :smoke

Yes, including Holyfield's 'cruiser' scalps makes his resume diabolical.

21 Months! Holmes had clearly won the second Spinks fight IMO. I do rate the Holyfield win almost as well, and Larry earned his way back into the top ten. Still, it's four years from 38 to 42 and one lf the rarest stoppages of an ATG Heavyweight.

Hookie's a Holy fan. :hi:

Trust, I give him immense credit for taking out 45-1 Tyson and just about seals the deal where they are concerned. As said, I do - typically - rate him higher. My two favorite heavyweights ever. :deal

 

Yeah that was a joke lol. this is my real list

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Lewis
6. Tyson
7. Liston
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Holyfield

 

He actually has a very weak resume. He's my #10, just because he cleaned his era and had an unbeaten streak for many years.

 

Last list I did had him at #10 but I can see how he would slip a couple notches.

 

Well if your argument is based on head to head or who beats who then fine. But I think the best way is to base it on a broader criteria.

I'm going to use 5 different criterion to compare Marciano and Liston.

1. Tenure as Champion.
2. Quality of Opposition.
3. Ability as a Fighter.
4. Career Longevity.
5. Special Recognition/Records.

1. Tenure as Champion

Considering that Rocky Marciano's legacy rests mostly on his undefeated tenure as champion and Liston's legacy rests on what he did before he became Champion I think it's fair to say that Marciano was the better champion; his reign was longer and he recorded more title defenses.

Advantage Marciano

2. Quality of Opposition

Top 10 Names (In no order)

Marciano

1. Jersey Joe Walcott
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Roland La Starza
4. Joe Louis
5. Lee Savold
6. Archie Moore
7. Don Cockell
8. Rex Layne
9. Harry Matthews
10. Bernie Reynolds

3 Lineal Champions (4 if you including Moore @ 175)

Liston

1. Floyd Patterson
2. Cleveland Williams
3. Zora Folley
4. Eddie Machen
5. Mike DeJohn
6. Roy Harris
7. Wayne Bethea
8. Henry Clark
9. Nino Valdez
10. Chuck Wepner

1 Lineal Champion

It should be noted that I had a difficult time putting together 10 names for both Marciano and Liston. I suppose it has more to do with the fact that both fought the same guys multiple times. Either way it's clear that Marciano's resume is a bit more top heavy in terms of marquee names. Liston on the other hand carries a bit more depth; he also faced his opponents closer to their physical best. The difference here though is that Marciano fought the best ranked fighters during his reign and he only fought fighters that were ranked #1 or #2 in the division as champion. On top of that he beat 3 fighters who are on most people's top 20 ATG Heavyweight list. While I think the Big Cat Williams was more dangerous than any opponent mentioned above, I gotta give the slight edge to Marciano.

Advantage Marciano


3. Ability as a fighter

Rocky Marciano proved that he's incredibly effective fighter not just in terms of his mental capacity to push himself to the limit, but technically he was far more proficient than many give him credit. Liston on the other hand has always been considered a head to head juggernaut and for good reason. It took a special fighter to beat Liston when all cylinders were firing. He's fought through broken jaw, broken nose, so it is my observation that he's got enough heart. While I acknowledge that Marciano was never beaten I think that if we put both fighters in a round robin tournament with every lineal heavyweight champion I firmly believe Liston will post fewer losses.

Advantage Liston

4. Career Longevity

None of these fighters had a Joe Louis or Larry Holmes type of reign but they did have their moment on top. For Marciano though his first fight against La Starza should have been his coming out party; his narrow or rather borderline questionable victory suggested that he wasn't the finished product judging the dubious opponents that followed the first La Starza fight. Once he beat perennial contender Rex Layne his relevance to the division had substance as it was all uphill from that point onwards. So I'd say from 1951 to 1955 was the extent of Marciano's relevance in the Heavyweight division.

Liston on the other hand made waves in 1958. He established himself as the division's most feared fighter as he cut through the ranks of the Heavyweight division forcing Patterson's hand. I'd venture to say while opportunities were present for him, even after the Ali fights and stint in Sweden; he was essentially a relevant fighter up until 1965 when he lost the rematch to Muhammad Ali. Given Liston's reign I'd wager to say that he carried the better longevity than Marciano.

Advantage Liston


5. Special Recognition/Records

Liston:
Liston vs Patterson I marked the first time a fighter took the Heavyweight Title in one round. It was the 3rd fastest KO in Heavyweight History (at the time). His demolition of Patterson surprised many who expected Patterson's speed and movement to befuddle the would be champion and make a contest of it for a few rounds.

Marciano:
Undefeated. There has never been a fighter in Heavyweight History to replicate Rocky Marciano's unbeaten streak of 49-0. He remains one of the few Heavyweight Champions to have beaten every man they've faced, leaving the sport on top.

Advantage Marciano

So there we have it. After doing a full analysis on both fighters I remain confident in my position that Marciano should rank above Liston.

 

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Johnson
5. Lewis
6. Dempsey
7. Holmes
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Tunney

 

Look Harder.

Actually he doesn't.

Sam Langford
Sam McVey x3
Joe Jeanette x2
Jim Jeffries
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns

Put together a top 30 ATG Heavyweight list and these ^ names listed above will start to look a bit more familiar.

 

Here's my harder look:

Sam Langford 156 pounds of fury when Johnson fought him. That's what we call a middleweight. Johnson never gave a return when Langford rounded into a mature, bigger fighter. Some will say Johnson was merely 185. Well, 30 pounds difference at those weights is HUGE. And since neither were really heavies in the modern sense at the time (and in comparing across decades, which we are for an all-time list, this is important), let's just not even consider this to register in the estimation of his greatness AS A HEAVYWEIGHT.

Sam McVey x3 All fights occurred when McVey was 19 years old, starting as a veteran of an entire 6 fights. Johnson slaps around a novice. Big Deal.

Joe Jeanette x2 I think it was a lot more than two fights. Jeanette was arguably an 0-1 fighter when they first met and a mere 8 fight vet when they last met.

Jim Jeffries - At his best Jeffries was a novice, a veteran of 19 fights, but for a while he was THE man. Unfortunately, that time had passed by 5 years, Jeffries was busy getting fat, drinking, taking no warmups for the Johnson bout and went into the bout thinking it was a fix in his favor. Johnson did what he had to do, but no great Kudos given here.

Bob Fitzsimmons - This is a joke, right? A 44 year old former middleweight? As great as he Fitz was in his day, there is ZERO credit given to this execution.

Tommy Burns - The modern equivalent of a super middleweight (and modern comparisons are relevant due to this being an ALL-TIME list). Pudgy, one dimensional with birthing hips. Fought nothing but ham and eggers during his reign. Does receive credit for beating the man that beat Johnson.

 

To pay devils advocate... Langford was a middleweight, Fitzsimmons was pushing 40, Burns was a light heavyweight, and Jeffries was beyond shot.

Edit: ignore. Ninja'd by Seamus.

 

Then there's that color line business as champion, for good measure. Not a Top 10 Heavyweight.

 

Well, parts of this one look like a joke to me! Johnson at 4, Liston at 7, Tyson 4 spots above Holyfield... smells like bull**** to me lol :yep

 

I would love to rank guys like Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Floyd Patterson, Gene Tunney, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, and some others above guys like Lennox Lewis, V. Klitschko, W. Klitschko, Riddick Bowe and some others but I don't because I know it would be pure bull**** if I did!!!

 

Ali, Muhammad
Foreman, George
Frazier, Joe
Holmes, Larry
Holyfield, Evander
Lewis, Lennox
Tyson, Mike

^^^^ Include Them. :deal

 

As well as Marciano and Johnson, they should be lock ins IMO. I can allow a little but if leeway for Johnson, as I feel I have studied him a fair amount, therefore subjectively have him quite high up. Frazier is my other top 10 with Liston, Dempsey and a few others just slightly missing out.