Who is the greatest MMA fighter ever?

Discussion in 'MMA Forum' started by Kittikasem, Jul 7, 2012.


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  1. Kittikasem

    Kittikasem Guest

    I think Hughes's resume is a bit stronger than Saku's, that's my reasoning. But as I said, I wouldn't argue with anyone who had Saku a bit higher. He was a special fighter and did some special things.
     
    Kittikasem, Jul 9, 2012
    Kittikasem, Jul 9, 2012
    #91
  2. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah...oh, not too well tbh, not too well....

    Personally I rate Cro Cop higher than Sakuraba....
     
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Jul 9, 2012
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Jul 9, 2012
    #92
  3. scurlaruntings

    scurlaruntings ESB 2002 Club Full Member

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    Hughes would have got kerb stomped. Personally id have Sakuraba higher than Hughes. Pretty easy decision for me based on who Saku beat and when he beat them. You've also got to take into account his victory over Royce. Remember this is a guy that shared a ring with a prime Vovchancyn.
     
    scurlaruntings, Jul 9, 2012
    scurlaruntings, Jul 9, 2012
    #93
  4. scurlaruntings

    scurlaruntings ESB 2002 Club Full Member

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    Nah apart from the OWGP there's no way CC is higher than Saku all time.
     
    scurlaruntings, Jul 9, 2012
    scurlaruntings, Jul 9, 2012
    #94
  5. Kittikasem

    Kittikasem Guest

    I've just looked through the win resumes of Hughes and Saku. It's actually a lot closer than I first thought. I had Hughes well clear of Saku in that regard, but Belfort, Rampage, Randleman, etc... I'm re-thinking as we speak.
     
    Kittikasem, Jul 9, 2012
    Kittikasem, Jul 9, 2012
    #95
  6. scurlaruntings

    scurlaruntings ESB 2002 Club Full Member

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    Watch those fights and see how he dealt with them. Matter of fact watch his epic match in the 2000 GP with Royce as well. Remember that **** was open weight. Saku was a straight stud.
     
    scurlaruntings, Jul 9, 2012
    scurlaruntings, Jul 9, 2012
    #96
  7. Kittikasem

    Kittikasem Guest

    My issue was never with Saku's skills, I've seen him fight and he was exceptional. The fight with Newton was sublime. I think he'd have spanked Matt Hughes. The very idea that Saku could have ever lost to Dennis Hallman is enough to make me **** myself laughing. My thing was always that Saku never have enough top-class wins to be among the top bracket, because he was always fighting bigger guys and was past his best by the time most of those guys were around, and so he inevitably lost most of his big fights. But, as I said, actually looking at his record as a list, I think that's a bit unfair, a bit of a misapprehension. He did win a lot of these big fights after all.
     
    Kittikasem, Jul 9, 2012
    Kittikasem, Jul 9, 2012
    #97
  8. Stoo

    Stoo Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Im not one to play MMath, but just look at the Newton fights

    Hughes owes Jeremy Horn his undoubted ATG status
     
    Stoo, Jul 9, 2012
    Stoo, Jul 9, 2012
    #98
  9. Vic-JofreBRASIL

    Vic-JofreBRASIL Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    His wins are great......Igor, Aleks, Randleman, Barnett, Coleman and that version of Wand (not a bad version) are great enough to make a comparison IMO.
    Even with the detail that many of these guys weren´t in their prime but even so.. it´s quite impressive.....
     
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Jul 9, 2012
    Vic-JofreBRASIL, Jul 9, 2012
    #99
  10. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    Fedor
    World Class Strikers- Schilt, Cro Cop, Hunt

    Hi Level Wrestlers- Randleman, Coleman

    Hi Level BJJ- Babalu, Arona, Nogueira

    Major MMA Title Holders- Coleman, Nogueira, Sylvia, Arlovski

    Percentage of Wins Inside the Distance- 76.5%


    Anderson
    World Class Strikers- None

    Hi Level Wrestlers- Sonnen, Henderson, Okami

    Hi Level BJJ- Maia, Lutter, Leites

    Major MMA Title Holders- Henderson, Belfort, Franklin, Griffin

    Percentage of Wins Inside the Distance- 78.1%


    Penn
    World Class Strikers- None

    Hi Level Wrestlers- Hughes, Sherk, Sanchez

    Hi Level BJJ- Renzo, Serra, Florian, Stevenson

    Major MMA Title Holders- Hughes, Gomi, Sherk, Serra, Pulver

    Percentage of Wins Inside the Distance- 81.3%


    GSP
    World Class Strikers- None

    Hi Level Wrestlers- Hughes, Koscheck, Fitch, Sherk, Trigg

    Hi Level BJJ- Penn, Serra, Shields, Mayhem

    Major MMA Title Holders- Penn, Shields, Hughes, Sherk

    Percentage of Wins Inside the Distance- 59.1%
     
    rekcutnevets, Jul 9, 2012
    rekcutnevets, Jul 9, 2012
    #100
  11. Kittikasem

    Kittikasem Guest

    In MMA terms (since that's the sport we are discussing here), do you not consider Vitor Belfort a high level striker, maybe Thiago Alves as well? They don't have the external credentials of someone like Hunt, but they have both stopped some top guys in MMA and are both striking specialists. I don't think it's necessarily right to focus and judge purely on external credentials. If we did that, we'd all consider Phil Davis a vastly superior wrestler to Rashad Evans, and yet in MMA Rashad wrestle****ed and dominated him. IMO, MMA is a discipline in itself and the guys who show great striking in an MMA context deserve to be rated highly as MMA strikers. Is Phil Davis a better wrestler in an Octagon that the 'uncredentialed' GSP? No, but by the system above you'd have to list Davis as a high-level wrestler and have to disregard GSP. Semmy Schilt may have had a great striking pedigree, but he got knocked out by Gilbert Yvel amongst others. Vitor Belfort has never been knocked out by a Yvel-level fighter, he was never properly KO'd until he fought the greatest striker ever in his division, and that was after years spent trading blows with the likes of Wanderlei Silva, Chuck Liddell, Alistair Overeem, and Dan Henderson.
     
    Kittikasem, Jul 10, 2012
    Kittikasem, Jul 10, 2012
    #101
  12. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Guest

    I didnt have time to do Penn and GSP. I dont know about world class since thats subjective, I just listed their highest level competed.


    Fedor

    Strikers- Schilt (K-1), Cro Cop (K-1), Hunt (K-1), HMC (K-1), Gary Goodridge (K-1), Lee Hasdell (K-1),

    Wrestlers- Randleman (NCAA D1 champ), Coleman (Olympic 7th), Lindland (Olympic 2nd), Henderson (World Cup 2nd),

    BJJ- Monson (ADCC 1st), Werdum (ADCC 1st), Sobral (Pan-Am), Arona (ADCC 1st), Nogueira (ADCC)

    Other grappling - Ishii (Olympic 1st Judo), Ogawa (Olympic 2nd Judo),





    Anderson

    Strikers- Newton (K1 HERO)

    Wrestlers- Sonnen (NCAA D1), Henderson (World Cup 2nd), Okami (NIL)

    BJJ- Maia (ADCC 1st), Lutter (ADCC), Belfort(ADCC 3rd), Okami (ADCC), Sakurai (ADCC 2nd)
     
    monaroCountry, Jul 10, 2012
    monaroCountry, Jul 10, 2012
    #102
  13. monaroCountry

    monaroCountry Guest

    I dont consider Belfort and Alves top rated striker, its easy to look good against other non top level strikers and Belfort and Alves hasnt exactly beaten any other top level strikers. You have to give UFC credit for their ability to hype fighters up.

    Experince and accomplishments in other combat sports is very relevant in MMA, but not the be all and end all. No one would want to stand and bang with Overeem, Semmy, and the other K-1 level strikers and it wouldnt be wise to try outgrapple someone like Monson and Werdum. Those fighters are skilled at certain areas and are pretty much unbeatable in them.

    Gilbert Yvel trains under Vos Gym and grew up in Amstradam, he also fought in K-1 so he isnt so bad. If you dont know already, I will tell you why Semmy couldnt knock Yvel's head off his shoulders. Its because Semmy wasnt allowed to strike WITH A CLOSED FIST, unlike Yvel. Semmy grappled all through the match and even when he was going for a submission the ref broke it countless of times mid attempt. Watching that fight you would think Semmy never punched someone in his life, you would laugh at his girl slaps.

    [yt]oswmYjc0t8E[/yt]
     
    monaroCountry, Jul 10, 2012
    monaroCountry, Jul 10, 2012
    #103
  14. Haggis McJackass

    Haggis McJackass Semi-neutralist Overseer Full Member

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    Modern guys don't have as much opportunity to fight K1 champions, judo gold medal winners etc, because the game has changed. Instead of fighting a guy who has trained one discipline his entire life, gone as far as he can there and then switched to MMA, they face guys who have trained MMA for most/all of their careers.

    This has pros and cons. It sounds great to say that you beat a world champion kickboxer. But maybe that kickboxer can KO anyone in a striking match, yet has no clue at all how to survive if the fight goes to the ground. A fighter who is a monster at one discipline may become an easy win if taken out of his element.

    Who is tougher to beat? The guy who has A+ level striking, D-level wrestling and D-level grappling? Or the guy whose skillset is B-level wrestling, B-level striking and B-level grappling? It all depends. There is no right answer. A tough guy is a tough guy, and a bad style matchup is a bad style matchup. :smoke

    :hat
     
    Haggis McJackass, Jul 10, 2012
    Haggis McJackass, Jul 10, 2012
    #104
  15. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    Belfort and Alves are good mma strikers, but that is not what I'm trying to do.

    I'm not focusing purely on external credentials. I'm focusing on fighters that have had success in mma, and then classifying them by their external background to show how each of these fighters have dealt with different styles.

    If I were analyzing Couture's fights in this manner, I would not include James Toney in the world class striker category because he has no mma credentials. That's why you don't see me trying to find a place to put Ogawa's judo credentials. Ogawa has no mma credentials. Ogawa doesn't have any good credentials, I should say.

    For whatever the reason, Fedor is the only one of the 4 that I was analyzing that has faced actual world class strikers that have accomplished something in mma. I would also like to point out he defeated them in a ring, which is a striker's preferred setting. There is a reason that Rorion chose a cage for UFC I as opposed to a mat or ring.

    I was also wanting to highlight their finishing rates. I realize this is a sport, but it is also a fight. Finishing your opponent inside the distance trumps a hard fought decision, dull decision, or any sort of decision.
     
    rekcutnevets, Jul 10, 2012
    rekcutnevets, Jul 10, 2012
    #105
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