1960 Sonny Liston vs 1919 Jack Dempsey

no matter how i look at it, i can't see a win for dempsey except by fluke, leotis martin-like KO. liston has a rough first 2, settles into a rhythm in round 3, cuts him up in 4 and 5, then KOs him in 6

 

The anecdote posted earlier reflects what I think about Liston- he'll look unbeatable until things aren't going his way and the intimidation won't work, and then he'll want to take his ball and go home. He's too plodding and I don't think he's got enough mental strength to hang with what a war with Dempsey entails.

I favor Dempsey in this fight. Conversely, along with my stance that I don't think Liston does well against a faster opponent who he can't bully, I also believe Dempsey is a different level of fighter when he's got the speed advantage. He's more likely to struggle against someone his own size or smaller who matches or surpasses his own speed than he is against someone who he has that advantage over.

 

Dempsey didn't hide from Wills or the first world war. That is ridiculous. Dempsey was an american icon on par with the great Babe Ruth in the 1920's. So the underestimating and downright smearing of Dempsey by jesters like Seamus and a couple others reeks of an anti-american bias as well as a hatred of the man himself.

After the infamous Johnson vs Jeffries debacle of 1910 racial strife ran rampart. It wasn't really until the great Joe Louis came along that heavyweight championship fights once again became intergrated. Only someone with an agenda like Seamus would accuse Dempsey himself of ducking Wills. These matches were not profitable and downright combustible until the artistry of the great Joe Louis stemmed that tide in the 1930's and 40's. Dempsey would have most likely dispatched Wills with ease. It was Sam Langford much earlier that was blantly ducked by Doc Kearns almost ten years prior.

That said this a pick em' fight for me. Either Liston early or Dempsey mid-rounds.

 

Actually, Dempsey did hide from the Great War and Harry Wills. That's how come he never met either... Anyone remember this brilliant picture of him in spats pretending to be a welder. Apparently he preferred being a common hobo village pimp to being a patriot during the war years.

 

Liston by KO in a short fire fight. Inside 5 rounds. Sonny is too strong and that bigjab is going to go right through Dempsey and stop him in his tracks. The followup would devastating.

If Dempsey did get off inside Liston would be able to use his superior upperbody strength to push him off the way Foreman did to Joe Frazier.

 

Dempsey never fought wills, Liston never fought ingo. Most think dempsey beats wills and most think Liston beats ingo. In that respect Dempsey and Liston have a lot in common.

All the fighters who beat or nearly beat Dempsey were good fighters.
How do marty marshal and big cat Williams (who never beat anybody or were ever regarded as threats to the HW championship) compare with gene Tunney and Jim Flyn?

Liston beat the best fighters around on the way up but nose dived when it counted. Patterson not putting up much effort made Liston go soft over two years having looked great in 1960. That’s all there is to go on. Liston was only 2-2 at elite level. Four fights where only the winners came to fight.

It is pure speculation to insist Sonny had more to offer at world level because of his pre title run againt a group of late 1950s heavyweights that were no better than say Gunboat Smith, Frank Fulton, Homer smith, carl morris, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Battling levinsky and Jess Willard. The difference was Dempsey built on that and Liston never did.

The fascination with Liston was he was the first bodybuilder who could fight. Before then there always were superheavyweights who could win when they outweighed lesser men but never made the grade when it counted or could beat fighters of their own size. Liston was better than that but lets not get carried away.

 

187 pound Dempsey loses to a 212 pound Liston, Liston has the weight advantage, a 7 inch reach advantage, a jab of epic proportions, is the stronger, and had as much badass attitude as Dempsey.

Liston would weather the Dempsey onslaught and unload himself by mid rounds.

Dempsey was the wrecking ball of his era, well versed in the tactics of the age, such as standing over a felled opponent ready to administer the Coup de Grace.

Dempsey had history of beating bigger guys however most of these behemoths were to say the least sluggers with limited defence other than what the defence their size/strength gave them.

 

Dempsey might be just too busy and fast. He hits harder and takes a better punch than any of the fighters Liston fought too.

burt whitehurst, marty marshal, jimmy summerlin and Leotis Martin gave Liston the most trouble and none were half as good or any bigger than Dempsey.

 

Dempsey retired at age 33, Liston lost to Martin at age 37 (well possibly older as D.O.B. uncertain).

Johnny Summerlin was a 22 fight veteran when Liston beat him in his 6th pro fight.

The story goes that Liston was asked to carry Marshall so audience got their moneys worth but Marshall did not keep his side of agreeement and landed blow that broke Listons jaw, but within 7 months a rematch with Marshall resulted in Marshall losing by TKO in round 6 having visited canvas numerous times.

Dempsey lost to a middleweight in his 9th pro fight.

But the above did not happen in 1919 for Dempsey or 1960 for Liston which is the question here.

I stand beside my view that Liston would triumph against Dempsey.

 

So you dont think Dempsey hits harder and takes a better punch than any of the fighters Liston fought?

Do you think burt whitehurst, marty marshal, jimmy summerlin and Leotis Martin were not half as good or bigger than Dempsey?

 

Well he could ask; you don't think Liston is better than Willie Meehan? You don't think Sonny hits harder than Fireman Jim Flynn?

 

I would answer yes Liston is better than meehan but so was Dempsey. The meehan fights were glorified gym workouts over 4 founds for charity in meehans hometown or in the naval yard that he worked in or something. This is no excuse. The record says Dempsey lost but there is more to it. were they real fights?

I also imagine sonny hit harder than Jim Flyn. Dempsey also KOd Flyn who was or had been a known fighter. marshal was not.

So yes, I answer both questions.

 

I gotta agree with this assessment. A couple of things surprised me while watching the video of Dempsey. One was how open his head was (Brennan hit him clean in the first couple of seconds) and two was the amount of clutching and grabbing he did. Seem like the perfect punch against Dempsey would be a well timed upper cut.

Both of those would not be good for Dempey against Liston, so I'm picking Liston in this mythical match-up. That said, Dempsey was a great infighter. Before everyone of those clutches he threw something meaningful before they started grabbing.

 

The comparison with floyd is flawed. Pattersons stance was square. Liston could drive the upercut from way outside through each arm of the peekaboo high guard.

Dempseys footing was side on. chin behind the shoulder not between his gloves.

Also Patterson was so poor against Liston it was like he had nothing to beat anyway. The guy packed a fake beard.

Jacks footwork allowed him to set the angle from which to pounce, can Liston time Dempsey if he comes in at an angle outside the front foot? Dempsey attacked from the sides.

 

One thing that gets a little underrated is Dempseys defense. When he wasn't on the attack (which was admittedly almost always) he could slip punches well. He kept his chin tucked, and would duck and roll his shoulder to avoid shots. You can see it against Willard, before he goes Cro Magnon on his ass, and against Brennan. Paterson was much easier to hit.