Vitali Klitschko vs Rocky Marciano

Yeah i can accept you saying he won against Byrd and he won against Chisora etc etc but he didnt win outright did he? It wasn't like he put on a world class performance Chisora was actually pretty competitive with him - that to me puts serious question marks against Vitali Chisora isn't even a blip on ATG-ness! Couple that with the mullering Lennox put on him - I know Vit is getting on now but still he is in magnificent shape still and he doesn't fight any differently to anytime in the past - I just don't think he's that amazing - without the size he'd be nothing - can you imagine what Lennox Lewis would've done to Chisora?? That's the difference between greatness and just being a good giant heavyweight - real greatness to me would overcome Vitali for me

 

He did not beat Byrd. He lost due to injury, just as Marciano would have lost to Charles if that nose injury happened in the 1990's.

And how many times do I have to repeat, Vitali was FORTY YEARS OLD when he dominated Chisora. F O R T Y! Are we comparing prime to prime or prime to geriatric?

And while we are supposedly picking poor performances, what would Vitali have done to butterball Don Cockell?

 

I'm having trouble following your train of thought here, honestly, Rock.

 

I know Byrd won but really I don't think Byrd actually 'winning' counts for that much under the circumstances - Vitali was winning for my money but the thing that does play on my mind is that Vitali again wasn't exactly dominating or looking a totally different class to Byrd in doing so - and in most of his defences he hasn't looked a totally different class to many (if any) of his fairly pedestrian challengers?? On the age thing I must reiterate that Klit still isn't showing age per sa? Not for me - he's in amazing shape (but part of me is convinced he's juiced) but he isn't fighting any differently at all for me so his age is of no consequence at this stage - plus yeah Don Cockell wasn't in Rocks class whatsoever but look what Rock did to him!?? He half killed him he absolutely murdered him - whereas say Chisora was, you know, not doing too bad actually against Vitali and Cockell was probably a better boxer than Derek?

 

a) Byrd was really good and of a style completely different than Marciano.

b) Vitali has only lost a handful of round in his entire career so I don't know how more dominant he could be.

 

A truly dominant champion crushes his opponents, sees them driven before him, and hears the lamentation of their women.

 

Then Genghis Khan is the only true champion.

I can stand by that.

 

No love for Alexander of Macedonia? Or the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V?

 

I thought competition faced didn't mean anything when ranking fighters?


If your opinion on this has miraculously changed, how does your heavyweight list look these days?

 

Do Alexander or Charles V have 16 million descendants?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0214_030214_genghis.html

Or as Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature contends that Khan led the bloodiest period of human existence?

No, KHAN KO EVERYONE.

 

Alexander had a short prime! He was done by the time he was 33, had he lived as long as Khan this conversation would be different. Alexander beat.everyone, every way possible he wasn't a one trick pony like Khan.

 

Alexander just gravy trained Darius' great accomplishments. I would put Darius above him for starters.

Seriously, I heard an NPR story where geneticists claimed that more people on earth carried Khan's DNA than any other individual and it not only wasn't close, there wasn't even another analogous male in existence.

Also, the single most violent time in human history, according to Pinker, was Khan's first wave. The mortality rate due to fellow humans was much higher than during the late Aztec period which garnered second place.

The Greatest ****er, the Greatest Killer=


The Greatest Man.

 

Dude kicked more asses than anyone. I love Alexander, both for the ego and the accomplishment, but it's impossible to compare him to Khan. Alexanders empire died with him whereas Khans carried on. My brother is a huge Genghis Khan buff, told me the thing about the genetics. Dude screwed a lot of people.

Also, I hope I don't screw this up but Khan had a general who never lost a battle. Not one. Take that Rocky Marciano!

 

And as for the greatest general... Scipio Africanus.

 

Alexander the overrated inherited his military machine from the efforts of his father and was born to a king. He beat Persia, fought some small time border Indian kingdom which tested his forces and then his army refused to go further into India after hearing of the massive Nanda empire's forces.

The Great Khan was born to Yesugei a minor clan Khan whose tribe abandoned Chingiz, his mother, his fathers other wife and his siblings to die after the Tatars killed his father. A family of 2 women, 7 or so children in the middle of steppe winter (when temperatures regularly plunge to -40c) left for dead, its a miracle they survived. He was then enslaved at age 14 or so IIRC by the Tayichiud tribe from where he again managed to escape. His chief wife Borte was kidnapped by the Merkid and when he managed to bring together an alliance to get her back again, she was found to be pregnant and gave birth to a son Jochi, Chingiz was never sure of his paternity though he raised him as his own.

Then his anda (sworn blood brother) Jamuka turned on him and they broke in 1181. For the next quarter century against all odds he would unite the scattered and feuding Mongol clans and tribes into a nation and become the sole Khan in 1206 after crushing Jamuka.

He then marched and crushed the Xia Xia (one of the 3 main Chinese dynasties), then the Jin. Just then a governor under the Khwarezm Shah executed his merchants even though just before the Khan made a deal for trade with the Shah. He then dispatched messengers asking that the governor be chastised only to have the Shah execute them also. It was then that he turned his attention from China and simply destroyed the empire in a breathtaking campaign with the Shah and his sons reduced to being beggars on the run relentlessly pursued by the Mongols, the Shah finally died in penury on the run in some tiny island in the Caspian Sea.

He then turned his attention back to China and almost finished off the Tanguts when he fell from his horse, got sick and died at the age of 65 in 1227 surrounded by his sons, wives, and family.

While he was alive Subedei and Jebe (two of his 4 "dogs of war") already made a foray into Russia and completely crushed the armies they encountered.

On his deathbed he laid out his plans for his descendants, the Tanguts were to be destroyed and then the Sung, Russia was to be conquered, and then the Muslim Caliphate, the Mongols were then to advance deeper into Europe. Pretty much every one of his wishes were fulfilled, the Mongols advanced upto Hungary and smashed the knights at the Battle of Legnica.

The Great Khan's descendants would found the Golden Horde (through Jochi) which ruled Russia for centuries, the Il Khanate in ME (through his grandson Hulagu Khan), the Yuan dynasty (grandson Kublai Khan) which ruled China for a century, the Mughal empire (descends from his son Chagatai) which ruled a good chunk of India for nearly 200 years.

The Mongol empire would last almost 150 years.

It was also under his rule that the Mongols acquired a script and a postal system was created. He also created a fixed body of law called the "Great Yasa" which he worked on throughout his life. None of these existed prior to him among a bunch of feuding nomadic tribes.

He has also managed to be the most prolific man in history uncovered by DNA testing so far.

Alexander's empire crumbled soon after his death.

There is simply no comparison in who achieved more, especially when you consider what Chingiz started off with.

He also conquered the supposedly "unconquerable" Afghanistan & completely crushed them.

Even the US today cannot repeat what he achieved, it would be the equivalent of taking on China & Iran in a 2 front war.

Purported to be the Great Khan's last words before he died:

“A jade stone is truely without crust, polished dagger has no dirt on it, a man born to life is not deathless, he must go without home, without a resting placing. The glory of a deed is in its completion. Firm and unbending is he who keeps a plighted word faithfully. Follow not the will of another and good will of many will be yours. It is clear I must depart from you all. The words of the boy Kublai are very weighty, his words you shall note. He shall adorn my throne some day”.

This is a decent movie if you want to know about his early life, reasonably faithful to history than most other historical movies:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfPgF4DF-Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfPgF4DF-Q[/ame]