Prime Calzaghe is a H2H Beast

Explain that when he fought Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Mitchell, Lacy, Veit, Kessler, Jones, Hopkins, who have all been world champs of sorts, regardless of your self grading system

 

Reid:
Lost to a 42 year old Malinga. After losing to Calzaghe lost to another journeymen
Brewer:
Coming off a recent loss and retired with about 11 losses on his record
Lacy:
Never beat anyone worth mentioning
Veit:
regional level
Jones:
shot
Mitchell:
Fringe contender coming off a loss
Eubank:
Lost to the last 5 relevant opponents he faced and took the fight at 11 days notice

The above guys are not much better than Brannon, Lucas, Telesco and undefeated Glen Kelly

 

YAAAAAAAWN. Any fighters record can be torn apart to be made to look average.

 

None of the guys he listed were any good. The only guys on Calzaghe's resume worth mentioning are Kessler and Hopkins

 

In order to make the big fights happen you have to be prepapred to do much more than call an opponent out. Think Hatton chasing the Mayweather fight

 

Bump

 

Ricky Hatton could have avoided Mayweather and Pacquiao, fought a few more times and gone on to beat old past-it versions De La Hoya and Mosley seeing him surpass Calzaghe's 46-0 and retire undefeated with a more impressive record.

If this had hapened I can garuantee people would be arguing how Hatton would have beaten Mayweather and Pacquiao and that Mayweather and Pacquiao ducked him. They would say how Hatton was unbeatable, there is no blue print etc etc and talk about Hatton beating the likes of Robinson, Duran and Leonard.

Looking impressive against below par opposition is no indication of how you will do against better fighters (see Lucian Bute) and whilst Calzaghe is no pushover I would pick the likes of Jones and prime Hopkins to beat him.

 

Hiya pal! How's it going?

Thankyou for your excellent reply yesterday on the other thread. I really enjoyed reading that. I'll reply as soon as I've got some more time on my hands.

I have gone on a tirade haven't I? Ha! It was in response to Bailey's facts.

Yes Roy faced a few bums around this time, but he was already a three weight world champion, and he was considered the best fighter in the world. I'm not saying Joe wasn't worthy of a shot, I'm saying he didn't do much to try and secure a shot. Most of Roy's bums were mandatories, and Joe could possibly have been one, if he'd have moved up and made waves at 175, which he was more than capable of doing.

Yes in 2002, Roy had bigger fish to fry. He'd already asked Murad to negotiate a Ruiz fight. That's true. But my argument is, Joe is saying that he chased Roy for 5 or 6 years but to no avail. That's my problem right there. Now realistically, they only had a small window to fight. Probably between 99 and 2002. But what period is Joe talking about, when he says 5 or 6 years?

I don't like how Joe plays the victim all of the time. Like I've said numerous times, and I'm probably boring you stupid, but talk is cheap. He never fought in Roy's weight class or country, so in my opinion that's not chasing a fight. But I do respect your opinion. The other factors to consider, are his mental state and his demands. I interprit his famous crown jewels quote, as him not being confident in beating Roy. It was also totally unrealistic, because outside of europe, despite being a great fighter, he wasn't well known enough, to make it a huge fight, so he could get paid the crown jewels.

Now as we've discussed, Frank had to talk him out of pulling out of the Lacy fight. Frank was furious, and told him he'd never get another chance if he backed out. He wasn't injured, it was a psychological problem. That has come straight from Frank's mouth, and it's factual information. He also pulled out of fighting Glen Johnson three times. Frank has stated numerous times that he didn't believe in himself enough. So, if you take all of this information into consideration, did he really really chase Roy and want to fight him? It's however you want to interpret it? But he knew his capabilities, he wanted the crown jewels, and he tried to pull out of a Lacy fight, so in my opinion, it was bravado and pride talking. He could have done a lot more to get Roy in the ring, but he didn't. So it's only my opinion, but when he says he genuinly chased him for 5 to 6 years, I don't believe him at all. There's no real evidence of him chasing the fight, apart from him getting Frank to make enquiries, and telling reporters that he wanted it. Talk is cheap!

But again, I'd like to know what time frame Joe was talking about? Roy agreed to go up to heavy late 2002 after Clinton, and he fought Ruiz and then Tarver in 2003. He then had a rematch with Tarver, and fought Johnson the following year in 2004. We also know that in 2006, Joe said Roy was done after his 2004 knockout defeats to Tarver and Johnson, and a fight between the two would be pointless. So he couldn't have chased him from late 2002 to late 2004, and after 2004, he didn't want to fight him, until they finally fought in 2008. So that rules out the entire period from late 2002 til their eventual fight in 2008. So the 5 or 6 years he claimed to have chased him, must have been from 2002 and earlier. So it doesn't make sense to me. The time frame he's referring to, would had to have been, between 97-2002. Now I'm sorry, but I don't believe that for a second. So I think he's talking complete nonsense.

When Roy went to heavy, Joe couldn't have chased him. Then less than a year after he'd returned to 175, and had been beat, Joe didn't want him. So did Joe really want Roy in 2002 and earlier? Not in my opinion.

The only way he was ever going to get Roy in the ring, was to either,

make a name for himself Stateside, to stir up interest in a fight,

if he ever got the opportunity, take it for whatever it was paying,

finally, try and lure Roy into the ring by having something that Roy wanted.

In my opinion, if he wasn't interested in the first two, he had to try and get the WBO belt that DM had, as we've discussed previously. That would have gotten Roy's attention. Roy wanted it, but not bad enough to fly to Germany for it, and risk being robbed like some of Ottke's opponents. If Joe had've had that belt, and have been willing to go to the U.S. Roy would have jumped at the chance for a unification fight. HBO offered DM $5m to go to the U.S. and he refused twice. Joe could have been offered a similar amount.

Now I know I've got a little carried away with myself, but I think it was more than possible for Joe to have moved up to 175 and worked his way up for a title shot at DM. He would had to have gone to Germany for it, but it would have been possible. He'd fought in Germany before, and I think DM would have fought him. So if Joe and Frank had've been desperate for Roy, I think that would have been the best plan to get Roy into the ring. Would Joe have beaten DM? I really don't know, because I don't know enough about DM, but it's an avenue they could have explored, instead of him whining about being avoided and missing out on big fights. Like I've mentioned before, if Clinton could fight Roy (near prime) Tarver, and Glen Johnson three times, there's no reason why Joe couldn't have gotten some, if not all of those fights. I don't think he wanted them as much as what he claimed.

Joe was a great fighter, but his ambition didn't match his skills. His 2008 win over Roy, was a cheap win that meant nothing, after Glen Johnson had knocked him cold more than four years previously. I think Joe knows in his heart that he couldn't have beaten Roy at his best.

Great debate!

Regards, Loudon.

 

mwhuahaha SuperVeit is back in the discussion, the intercontinental champ man of steel, the 'failed' version of Sven Otkke.

sorry, its just sofunny when certain people talk abot him like hes some second coming of sugar ray leonard. gotta laugh when people mention him like hes an actual champion when he couldnt hold onto a title even a watereddown SMW one. Poor guy should have stuck to being the national champion in Germany, its about his level.

 

The guy was 30-0 but hadn't fought anyone above domestic journeyman level when he got a shot at Calzaghe. He'd also only fought one 12 rounder and that was against some nobody for the Inter-Continental SuperDuper WBOgus tilte or something.

 

What more did Hatton do?


I wasnt ever convinced Hatton really wanted that fight. I always felt it was Mayweather because Hatton said something about not being ready before the fight was made after beating Castillo, but made a comment also about more excitement in that fight than Floyds career combined when interviewed straight after.
Anyway that besides the point.

What more did Hatton do?

 

one of the best posts regarding calzaghe that i have ever seen on this forum! of course, calzaghe fans can't fight worth ****, and therefore do not understand this logic. all they understand is the records, boxerec, and wbc or ring magazine ratings at the time. that's why they think he beat a prime Hopkins.

 

Im not going to go through every part of this but just ask some details of some parts mentioned

How was it a weak division? Please answer that
If it took 9 years to unify then that should be a question asked to the other champs because Ottke wouldnt fight Calzaghe, so what was he supposed to do?
It shows when there were willing champs to unify an old Calzaghe past his best accepted.

What bigger fights are you reffering to?

Where did you personally see Calzaghe saying or did you read Calzaghe wanted the crown jewels, because if you really know the whole page then you would know what else was written. Think you should find out first. anyway
What was Jones asking for when refusing and later wanting 10 mil? Is that not the crown jewels.
When Hopkins outpriced himself asking for 6 mil, was that not the crown jewels?


Kessler had beaten Beyer in a unification. That was somebody of note. Siaca had beaten WBA SMW champ Mundine and Kessler also beat Mundine who once again became WBA champ. But still if you think that is nobody of note, you cant be too impressed with Ward beating a rusty unwell version of Kessler that Calzaghe exposed years previously

Lacy had beaten world rated Vanderpool, world rated Tsypko, world rated Pemberton and world rated former WBC champ Reid

They would have fought in 2004 if Johnson had waited instead of fighting Jones. Johnson told Dan Goosen to forget about Joe. Yet he came running back to Calzaghe when Joe became a superstar after whooping Lacy.

BBC Tuesday, 8 June, 2004

But Johnson is adamant Calzaghe has lost his chance, saying: "The fight is off. I'm not interested in fighting Joe Calzaghe any more.Johnson refused to wait for the fight to be rescheduled on 04,fact.

Calzaghe agreed to fight Johnson in September 06 on the condition that Johnson beat Woods in their 3rd fight. However Johnson lost and missed his chance. Calzaghe was ringside for this fight - some scared ducker hey. Why do people leave out this information when discussing this issue?

and I have a hard time believing Calzaghe would duck an old journeyman like Johnson to fight a younger, much more dangerous Mikkel Kessler!!! and yes Calzaghe WAS injury prone. he was notorious for hand problems.....Many of his fights including Lacy had to be rescheduled. He still ended up fighting them. He wanted to reschedule the Johnson fight but like i saidJ ohnson said he was "done" with Calzaghe.

everybody was beating johnson before he popped up on the hbo screen and knockout that over hyped HBO fighter jones jr

also not once throughout calzaghes reign was johnson ranked in the ringmag top 10!!

Also I would add that Calzaghe had to fight the winner of Johnson/Sheika, but guess what Johnson lost that one also.

Calzaghe didnt avoid Johnson, Johnson couldnt win his fights to build the fight on 2 occasions

Now you are quoting a boy of around 12 who was worried about his father going into a boxing match and a father trying to reassure his son, as a source for your arguement atsch

Hopkins you mention was a SD but you dont note
1. Calzaghe landed more than 100 punches than Hopkins throughout the fight.
2. Contrary to what people want to believe, Calzaghe also made Hopkins miss more
3. All round punch percentages, Calzaghe finished ahead of Hopkins
4. Calzaghe outlanded Hopkins in every round
5. A Byrd who scored for Hopkins it appears has a history for bad scorecards. Type in Adalaide Byrd in Google and see what comes up for yourself, still here are some little things for you to look at
a. A Byrd was the only judge out of the 3 scoring judges that had Mack ahead against Cloud
b. The K Pavlik - A Lopez fight was scored 98-92, 99-91 by the other 2 judges, A Byrd scored it 95-95
c. A Byrd was one of the judges that had Morales a 4 point loser against Maidana
d. In the S Aydin vs S Ouali fight, the other 2 judges scored clearly for Aydin. Byrd scored for Ouali
e. The J Almaraz/C Tyler fight was scored a Maj-Dec all because of one judge, guess which? A Byrd
f. The A DeMarco/J Reyes fight was a SD. Guess who the odd judge out was? A Byrd.
g. The R Torres - M Arnaoutis fight was a close fight, a point either way to 2 judges but a wide result scored by Byrd
h. In the A Pryor Jr/D Stanislavjevic SD, guess who the odd judge out was? You guessed it... A Byrd
i. The W Ferguson/J Lopez SD, guess who the odd judge out was? You guessed it... A Byrd

I think thats enough for you to get the picture with Byrd. Remember the other 2 judges scored clearly for Calzaghe

6. Calzaghe beat Hopkins in America, at a new weight with 3 American judges and Cortez as ref.
7. Calzaghe scored the single highest score card against Hopkins ever 116-111.
8. The 2 judges that scored for Calzaghe agreed on 9 of the rounds
9. Calzaghe landed more on Hopkins than anyone ever.

Anyway that should do

 

Bailey,

Hi, I'll let Zod respond to your reply to him, but you've got no arguement saying that Roy wasn't shot.

We've all seen the quotes from various peolpe picking Roy. But the majority of those people were American, and they were been sentimental, and they hadn't seen a lot of Joe throughout his career. Yes Joe wasn't at his best, but the fight was irrelevant, apart from boosting Joe's bank balance a final time.

Let's stick to facts. Roy suffered two crushing knockout defeats in May and Sept of 2004.

Joe fought Roy more than FOUR YEARS later, and two years AFTER he said a fight against Roy would be pointless.

Roy was 9 weeks away from his 40th Birthday. These are facts that nobody can dispute. If you class that as a good win for Joe, fair enough, that's your opinion, but you really can't dispute that Roy wasn't shot. I don't like that word, but basically Zod is saying that he was a long way from his peak. You can't really argue otherwise.

Regards, Loudon.