Johnson vs Klondike 1. A quit job or KO loss?

Adam,

One can read primary sources of papers covering the same fight, and the report can vary. Sometimes they can’t agree on who won! Other times, they can miss major events in a fight such as knockdowns. I think we agree on the above givens. This my source is better than yours played by some here ( Primary or Secondary ) is often hard to solve…especially if the match took place over a 100 years ago, and there is no film.

In this case specifically, two very popular books on Johnson ( Papa Jack and Unforgivable Blackness ) said he quit. Authors are usually a bit biased for their subject material. Quitting takes many forms in boxing. Unforgivable Blackness says Johnson had a long count, assumed a comfortable position, and opted not to get up. Future more it is written the prompter did not want to pay Johnson. The way Ward writes it, it is a clear quit job.

If a paper says Klondike landed a bomb, and Johnson dropped like a rock and was counted out, or the referee saved him from further punishment, then I would say legitimate stoppage. I don’t think posting what all your sources here say will diminish your book sales. Can you post them so I can read them?

I’ll keep an open mind this could be a legitimate stoppage( as I think Johnson had a suspect chin when hit flush by someone with power ) , but I will have to read something detailed in print about the ending of the match from multiple sources to change perspective. Luckily you have them.

Regards,

 

A lie, but par for the coruse.

Never you say. Another lie. What can we wager?

Was Siler rooming with Johnson? Could this be second hand info? This is not a primary source!

I see my resident punching bag wants to learn what Siler though about Jack Johnson. I doubt you read his book “ Inside facts of Pugilism” , but I can fill you on a few things:

Ok— on page 111 of his book he said Peter Jackson was the best of the black heavies by far. Better than Jack Johnson. He also said Jackson hit harder than Johnson did. I’m sure you disagree with him on at least one of these two points : )

Page 115. He lost to Choysnki and Hart, and Fouled Joe Jeanette. As I told you many times, Johnson hit Jeannette low. This to me says he did not think much of Johnson if Jackson according to him was the best " by long odds. " He also says Johnson lost on a DQ prior to the Choynski match… not sure which match he was talking about. Perhaps an undiscovered fight?

On film, Siler seems to have good command of the fighters, but he can be seen being somewhat favored to Fitzsimmons ( who he was very fond of ) when Corbett had Fitz in some trouble and Fitz was holding on. Siler can also be seen arguing with the time keeper in the same fight, which I have 27 minutes of footage on.

On another film, Siler escortss Gans to his corner after a rough round one vs. McGovern. Whether you think it’s a fix or not, since when does a referee escort another fighter to his corner? This seems a bit biased.

 

Adam,

Thank you for posting what you have. I view you as a pragmatic and well informed poster. Unlike McVey you do not use double standard or selective parts of newspapers or prints to make your point without examining the other side of the coin. As I said before, sometimes primary sources vary! These reports offer false information and sometimes contradict each other. It will be tough to make a definitive conclusion here.



The local Daily Inter Ocean said Klondike won the fight in the 6th round, when Referee Hogan stopped the bout at the request of a police lieutenant who was close to the ropes.

"It was stopped more on account of Johnson holding on than because of any rough milling. Johnson is about 6 feet 2 or 3 inches, and has a punch in either hand that would fell an ox. He could not land it fair on Klondike, although a punch in the head in the second round sent Klondike to the floor. He arose immediately. After the third round Johnson tired rapidly and clung to his man at every opportunity."



>>Johnson had a punch like an ox, and is about 6’2 or 6’3”. Wrong on both counts. This report indicates a TKO stoppage.



The Chicago Times-Herald said “John Johnson, the discovery of George Siler, proved to be a husky fighter of enormous height but of insufficient skill to win from ‘Klondike,’ the latter getting the decision in the fifth round after lieutenant O’Connor had called it off on account of the clinching tactics of the loser.”



>>This one says it was stopped in round five due to excessive clinching, which would equate to a modern TKO. Once again, “ Enormous height for Johnson who was just a shade over 6 feet tall? “ A bit of an exaggeration, even by the standards of 1900.

The Chicago Tribune said the local Chicago boxer, Klondike, defeated Jack Johnson of Springfield, Illinois in the heavyweight class, but it did not say what the specific result was or even how many rounds the bout lasted. “Johnson, a long rangy colored man from Springfield, looking something like Fitzsimmons in black, showed up well at the start, but weakened under the steady but ponderous attack of Klondike.”



>>>No conclusion here…



Summary: Excessive clinching to force a stoppage can be viewed as a form of quitting. Today this fight would be viewed as a TKO loss with tons of boos from the crowd. Imagine what Larry Merchant might say if he witnesses crap like this?! It seems clear that Johnson adapted this tactic because he could not take Klondike’s blows . What is unclear is if this fight had anything to do with Johnson’s alleged Yellow streak. A man’s character in the ring is seldom tested when things go his way, but here under adversity, Johnson was. The results were telling. Since Siler “ Discovered “ Johnson in Battle Royal’s, it is fair to speculate he would make try to put a positive spin on this one, calming Johnson wasn’t well feed. This would be impossible to prove either way.

 

I don't see how posting newspaper reports which contradict each other gives anyone a peek into what he is going to write.

If you read what Siler said, he thinks Peter Jackson was MUCH better, hence he did not think much of Johnson.


In this case I now believe Johnson showed his dog side by not fighting back, and forcing the fight to be stopped. The promoter did not want to pay him a dime.


Why you have such a man crush on a man who beat his wife beating, who ducked his best completion as champion, was Ko'd by one punch by a smaller man, quit in fights, was DQ'd for throwing low blows, and in other fights drew and was knocked down by super middles is beyond me. All the above is true.

 

If you are referring to Vitali, he always tested clean as a pro. Yes, he did quit once with an injury that required surgery, but as a fighter he went after the best, was never floored, asked for re-matches, has one of the highest stoppage percentages in history, was never behind on any score card, and came back to the top after a long lay off.


I follow the amateur game and usually develop my favorites for there. See the other tread I created for a quick preview of what's out there at heavy and super heavy in the 2012 games.