Sonny Liston in the following fantasy h2h matchups

Your kidding right? Liston would knock out 1950 Louis

 

whilst this is often true of many fights the fact is on close examination of the Valdes vs. Charles fight reports Nino IS described as "out slugging" "Mauling" "Wading in" "walking Charles across the ring" "working the body" "pressing" “attacking” far more than Jabbing.

At no point can I find reference to Nino "OUT JABBING Charles all night".
This is because it was not that kind of fight. For "out jabbing" to be a factor "out jabbing" has to get a mention. Not simply a mention of a jab or use of them within a flurry.

Out jabbing is not the same as a reference to a jab in itself. Out jabbing implies an altogether different fight. . Nino was not Larry Holmes, film of clumsy Nino Valdes in other fights prove this.

 

I would doubt there are entire reports out there on FOTC that describe Joe Fraziers offence without mentioning his hook in the way THERE ARE entire reports on Valdes v Charles without mention of Nino's jab.

The truth is I couldn't.

 

Charles can't handle world class tall fighters's jabs

 

it is less problematic than your assumption that Valdes "out jabbed Charles all night".

Charles said Valdes was "a good mauler" he did not call him a good jabber who out jabbed him.

Valdes hit charles with a lot of punches but being out worked is not the same as being out-jabbed.

 

But if longer reports do not mention nino's jabs at all what does that say?

 

What the ****. seriously WHAT THE ****. Louis was a wreck in 1950. Not as good as Liston by any means.

 

I don't see much evidence to suggest Valdez was jabbing his head off. The longer reports that describe the entire course of the fight don't seem to paint that picture.

I'm assuming you've seen the footage we have of Valdez/Moore, Valdez/Baker, Valdez/Satterfield, Valdez/Jackson, and Valdez/McMurty. Despite various points of his career, while he had a jab, he wasn't one for controlling distance. He liked to mix it up close, had a good right hand and uppercut.

 

-I think these compliments seemed to be a rather unfair jab at choklab.

-Blah, to your sensitivity remark.

 

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't.

Joe Louis was way past his best in 1950 but I think he was way better than Liston to begin with.

 

No way. Liston was a monster, beat a bunch of terrific fighters in their primes and dominated the late 50s-early 60s competitive division. 6'1 215 hulking pounds of muscle, one of the best jabs ever with a ridiculously long reach, good boxing skills, terrific head movement, rock solid chin, terrific punching power in both fists with dangerous finishing ability...One of the best ever

 

He was very good, I know that.
But Joe Louis was much better. Joe Louis was a greater boxer by far.

I'm not buying that the Liston era was a great era in the HW division or that he beat a bunch of terrific fighters. And Sonny didn't dominate for long anyway.

 

Harris, folley and machen?

Did patterson come to fight?

Liston had good tools, good to watch but it is an all time thin resume for a top 5 ATG heavyweight.

Liston was 2-2 in fights against the elite heavyweights of his day.

 

Williams 2x, Patterson 2x, Folley, Machen. All A level fighters in their primes. Williams a fast devastating puncher, Patterson an ATG, and Machen/Folley tremendously skilled boxers.


ps Big Cat Williams knocks out Roy Harris in 1959-1960.