Johnson vs Klondike 1. A quit job or KO loss?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jul 20, 2012.


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  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I suppose there is some truth to that! Most don't care what the other poster thinks. I suppose some like to watch Mcvey go haywire at times. I do bring forth plenty of books and news reads to judge which I did not write on this topic.


    This thread has run its course. Johnson opted out of the fight when the going got rough. He wasn't in there with a 5'9" middle weight. He was in there with a guy who could hit. Johnson's clinching on film worked with the much smaller, stationary and old. In fact, you gave me a new idea for a thread at a later date.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 26, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 26, 2012
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's interesting that you insist that drawing concrete conclusions is difficult because primnary sources cannot be trusted but still manage to draw a concrete conclusion in direct contradiction to the world's foremost scholar on the matter. Where I come from we have a phrase for such an individual.

    "****ing idiot."
     
    McGrain, Jul 26, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 26, 2012
    #47
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    There is no need for me to respond further Mcgrain , you have closed the book on Mendoza.
     
    mcvey, Jul 26, 2012
    mcvey, Jul 26, 2012
    #48
  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    McGrain,

    You are usually a good poster, so I am going to ignore your insult and remind you that this thread was a question. I provided two books that said quit job, and offered a comment on primary sources, saying they can contract each other before reading the ones Adam submitted.

    As I suspected the primary sources posted were uneven, and had some falsehoods about them. I made an analysis based on the four reports posted. Johnson got hurt, and opted out by excessive clinching. Then you tried to switch the topic to another fighter, and got your panties in a wad with an insult.

    Whatever.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 27, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 27, 2012
    #49
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Not only do some of the reports contradict this but that he "opted out" is total conjecture. He could have been hurt and holding on. It could have been a bad decision. Or it could have been stopped by the police as described. But naturally, you ignore all that.
     
    McGrain, Jul 27, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 27, 2012
    #50
  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Not one reports suggests a bad decision. I do think he was hurt and holding on. One report said so. Yeah the police stopped it, was it to prevent further punishment?


    Opting out by excessive clinching and not fighting back is a form of quitting because you are not trying to win.


    Also, any comments on the promoter not wanting to pay Johnson a dime for this performance? The reports says Johnson started out well, but when the going got tough he shut down.
     
    Mendoza, Jul 27, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 27, 2012
    #51
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Hence the word "perhaps".

    Not one report suggests is was quit job either, but that is what you are happily repating.

    What Adam says:

    This is based upon a detailed reading of the next day accounts which include absolutely NOTHING about anyone having the impression that Johnson quit.

    Here is what you say:

    That is speculation. It is in the very language. "...can be viewed as a for of quitting."

    You take a DECISION to reach a given conclusion in an abscene of evidence based upon your personal bias. This is what I am referring to when I say and Janitor implies that you are not to be taken seriously.
     
    McGrain, Jul 27, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 27, 2012
    #52
  8. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    How is it possible for Jack Johnson to opt out by excessive clinching?

    That was one of his best strengths, wouldnt it be like saying Johnson was trying to opt out against Jeffries by excessively clinching?

    I really dont see the controversy about this fight, in fact it is a little confusing what is being argued. Unless i misunderstood the thread, there seems to be common ground in that Johnson was beaten and stopped early. The only dispute is that Mendoza seems to have provided possible evidence that the promoter didnt want to pay Johnson (ie he thought it was a dive?). If this was true, wouldnt it enhance the reputation of Johnson's chin.
     
    Boilermaker, Jul 27, 2012
    Boilermaker, Jul 27, 2012
    #53
  9. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    McGrain,

    It is written that Johnson quit. Since the authors of Unforgivable Blackness, and Papa Jack do not post here, no one can say where they got the information that Johnson quit. Yet they wrote that.

    The reports that Adam posted have inaccurate information in them, and contradict each other. They really do not offer great detail. They are short, and uneven. Do we at least agree here?

    Without video or a more detailed account, its hard to say exactly what happened, but at the very least it appears Johnson was hurt, and his will to fight back was taken from him hence the excessive clinching, which lead to the stoppage. Does anyone want to address the promoter not wanting to pay Johnson?

    Was the colored title on the line here?
     
    Mendoza, Jul 28, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 28, 2012
    #54
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mendoza,

    You are literally the only poster that consistently prefers secondary to primary sources on a regular basis. The ONLY one.

    Indeed, those men don't post here. For every single other member of the forum that is cause to prioritise primary sources.

    But not for you.

    This is due to your embarrassing inherent biases that define you completely and the specific reason that serious posters regard you as a joke.

    Correct.

    This makes your biased presumptions even more ridiculous.
     
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2012
    #55
  11. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Whatever McGrain,

    If you don't think excessive clinching to opt out of a fight is a form of quitting, you are mistaken. You use plenty of speculative language here too. You are very quick to completely discount two very popular book on Johnson, and rally behind four fight reports, which really don't say much and have incorrect information and word description in them.

    Finally, I think the promoter not wanting to pay Johnson is very telling here. At the very least it shows Johnson dogged it. Can we at least find common ground on that point?
     
    Mendoza, Jul 28, 2012
    Mendoza, Jul 28, 2012
    #56
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    And at what point, exactly, did I say I thought that?

    I'd rather be quick to discount these books form a position of neutrality than quick to dismiss primary sources from a position of fierce bias, as you are. It's pathetic.

    Of course you do. Your bias denotes that you do. The possibility that it is bull**** or that the promoter is a ****ing crook would never enter your distorted little mind.
     
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2012
    McGrain, Jul 28, 2012
    #57
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Adam. That is amazingly generous of you to post your hard sought after information in order to settle a debate.

    Any objective poster can now see the debate is settled.

    The picture painted is pretty clear. Johnson started strong, gassed terribly, began clinching, the police had enough and stopped the fight.

    Under modern rules johnson probably could have held on for a decision loss, literally.

    Once again, thanks adam.
     
    lufcrazy, Jul 28, 2012
    lufcrazy, Jul 28, 2012
    #58
  14. apollack

    apollack Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You are welcome. That's how I see it too. In my books, I try to be fair and objective. I try to come to my own conclusions, but I also lay out the raw data for the reader to make his or her own decision. I think if you read the several sources and harmonize their commonalities, your conclusion is the conclusion that is most logical. But this thread shows that 10 people can read those sources and 9 might come to one conclusion, and 1 might still come to another. Sort of like scoring a fight. Not everyone will always agree on what was said, even when they read or watch the same thing. Or most will interpret it one way, while a minority will interpret it another.

    I do enjoy these debates and discussions because it lets me know the areas where there are questions and debates, and so when I research my books I try to answer some of those questions, or at least provide more information so that there can be a better informed discussion.

    What amuses me is that Johnson seems to be a hot button topic of debate as much today as he was back then. He really fascinated and puzzled folks then, caused a great deal of discussion and varying interpretation of him as a fighter and person, and still does so even a century later. Part of it was/is because of race, part style, part personality, part context and culture, partially because fighters improve over time, and also because he was simply a very unique individual.
     
    apollack, Jul 28, 2012
    apollack, Jul 28, 2012
    #59
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Anyone desiring a benchmark book on Jack Johnson ,would be well advised to purchase Adam's book when it comes out.
     
    mcvey, Jul 28, 2012
    mcvey, Jul 28, 2012
    #60
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