Who had the better Career Resume...Liston or Johnson

It's not about size discrepancy. It's about division discrepancy. Johnson was a heavyweight by his day's standard. Langford was smallish middleweight. Wlad is a heavyweight by today's standards, Martinez a smallish middle. Byrd was a legit 210 pound heavyweight.

Lauding Langford as one of the greatest fighters ever and giving Johnson proper credit for beating a very light Langford who had yet been tested as a heavy are two different issues. My stances on each are completely reconcilable.

My standards for early HW pugilism are consistent with those for the modern ranks. My problem is with the separate set of standards exhibited on this board.

 

Why don't we just add up all the weights of a fighter's opponents and get the TOTAL TONNAGE (TT) he faced.
Then divide that by number of fights he had, to find AVERAGE WEIGHT OF OPPONENT (AW).

Multiply TT by AW to find out who was the greatest heavyweight of all-time.

 

So he weighed in at 186 and 190lb for two fights right before fighting johnson, then he suddenly shoots up to 205lb like that?

 

Martin scaled 190lbs 4 years before he fought Johnson.


Johnson scaled 185 when he fought Sailor Burke in 1907,4 years later he scaled 208/212lbs for fights.


If he could add 23/27lbs in 4 years ,why couldn't Martin add 15lbs in the same time frame?



Below, Johnson's ko of Martin.





http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...,4486586&dq=jim+jeffries+vgriffin+fight&hl=en

 

Langford was a HW by his days standards. A very small HW, but a HW. Yes, he was a contesting MW during the point Johnson beat him but he was not merely a MW. That is not fair to Langford. Eventually he grew into being a bigger, more standard HW of his day. Your complaints about him being untested have merit. However, Langford had beaten Jeannette prior to the Johnson fight. Two years later he beat Jeannette and Flynn again and scaled around 166 pounds at that point. I wouldn't call him just a MW then just because he scaled around the MW limit when he was fighting HWs. Yes, he became an ever bigger and better HW when he filled out to his peak weight of about 185 pounds. Nobody would deny this.

Our biggest disagreement is probably your last statement which I think is a little unfair and unrealistic. I would have liked Johnson to defend his title against Langford, Jeannete, and McVey but the times didn't permit it. He did defeat McVea and Jeannete multiple times to defend his colored title. That seems to be meaningless to you, though.

 

I think anyone over 158 pounds was a heavyweight in Jack Johnson's day.

 

The Hall of Fame is a popularity contest.

 

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Wlad fight 1: 238
Byrd fight 1: 213
Size difference: 25

Wlad fight 2: 241
Byrd fight 2: 213
Size difference: 28

Johnson: 185
Langford: 156
Size difference: 29

Not much difference

Williams does not belong there. Overrated like crazy that dude. He was no batter than someone like Jim Johnson.

How can Langford be a smallish mw when the mw limit around the time was 158 and the lhw division barely existed?

 

Martin weighed up to 240lbs for some of his fights.

 

In heavyweight contests in the days of Jack Johnson I don't think they even bothered weighing the fighters. It was mostly speculation and hearsay.

 

Size difference should be done as a ratio/fraction/factor rather than a spread.

For example 1 pound to 21 pounds is a much bigger fighting difference than 200 pounds to 220 pounds.

Hence why the weight between weight classes increases as you move up.

 

Big Cat Williams would have flattened Denver Ed Martin

 

This is such a disingenuous argument. There is a far bigger difference between a 156 pounder and a 185 pounder than there is between a 241 and 213 pounder and you absolutely know this (or are a complete ******).

Let's see... David Haye just thrashed Chisora with a differential about the same, Chris Byrd was routinely able to do the same, Joe Louis could do it with ease... hell, even Roy Jones did something similar.

Now, when is the last time a World Class middleweight, fighting as at the middleweight limit took out a world class heavyweight or even cruiserweight?

I am waiting...