Who has the best most impressive win over Hopkins

:hi:

 

Hopkins was a technically better fighter against Jones than against Calzaghe. Let's be clear about that.

Old Hopkins is grossly overrated as a technician. His technical poise while attacking is awful. He hardly put combinations together, has bad balance, crosses his feet and holds his head way too low - taking his eyes of the opponent. No technical master does this. But he's savvy enough to make the most of it, using body checks and head butts rather than fists as weapons. You could see tendencies of this already against Jones, but they've become more and more pronounced during the last 10+ years.

A young Jones would murder someone "attacking" the way Hopkins did against Calzaghe. He'd quickly step back and pounce on the open target that is Hopkins' head when he keeps it that low while stumbling forward.

 

:think

:hi:

 

see below

 

Look Kitti, we both agree Ottke > Lacy. there's no point us going over that since we're on the same side.

 

OK mate, fair enough.

 

yeah the end result is simply I see him as a great SMW and you don't.

We do both agree the Jones victory > The Calzaghe victory right? (since that is the actual thread topic )

 

It's weird, I view him as the "greatest" smw there has been in terms of achievement... but that still doesn't make him a boxing great in my eyes. It's a young division who has never had a truly dominant champion. Hopefully Ward will clean it out properly and at least set up some form of lineage from Calzaghe to Ward, and on to the next person. I can't bestow genuine greatness on Calzaghe just because he fought in a young, weak division. Plenty of fighters have had only short title reigns or incurred numerous losses because they've been battling it out in stacked, strong weight classes. As I say now and always will say, you only prove greatness in the ring. And Calzaghe didn't beat enough proven quality guys in the ring to be a boxing great IMO. There's plenty other guys I'd say the same thing about.

Yes, I agree the Jones win was better. What Hopkins lacked in defensive smarts, he made up for in physical prime (and obviously, stamina). I can't even consider the question really, as I don't think Calzaghe was all that close to deserving the verdict vs Bernard anyway. Jones beat him clearly.

 

I'm not sure I consider him the greatest in the division to be honest.

I think toney was the first smw i'd call great. then jones, calzaghe and ward either matched or surpassed him. Froch is close if he can string out some high end victories.

With joe, he achieved more than anyone in the division but I don't think he's got a better resume than Ward. Plus Ward won the s6 tournament and i'd favour him to beat joe.

That demonstrates how weak the division's history is, that I am considering whether a young 4 year pro is the divisional goat.

Well in terms of the big picture of the thread atleast we are in agreement :good

 

Yeah, it does seem so :good

I consider him the top in terms of achievement, just because he's the only one that has won all of the major titles. Although, you could argue that winning the Super Six is better than winning a vacant title in a setup of a fight, taking 9 years to beat Lacy, then beating Kessler. But I think I'll stick with Calzaghe for now. Ward will supersede him achievement-wise soon, whereas I agree he has already superseded him resume-wise, and in my view he supersedes him in terms of skills+ability as well. Ward is eclipsing Calzaghe as time goes on, in my view.

H2H/ability-wise, yes I'd say Jones, Toney and Ward are great smw's, but Jones and Toney didn't stay there long enough to become greats achievement or resume-wise there.

Froch is close to Calzaghe, in every way. A return win over Bute in Canada and a revenge win over Kessler in Nottingham, and you have a real discussion on your hands.

Yeah, Ward's resume is very good considering how short his tenure has been. He was much more dominant than Calzaghe was vs Kessler, and Kessler proved later vs Froch that he was still a top fighter. Add that to the wins over Froch, Abraham, Bika, Green, Miranda...

...and maybe even Dawson soon. Ward is special, and getting better. :deal

 

I thought Taylor won both fights. Close but clear. I just started a nice cheese pizza. Will sit down and score this one.

 

yeah I'm the same in terms of why I considered him top but it all seems a bit, meh. like I put Joe top because everyone puts Joe top. In reality a high level s6 is much better than what Joe did. Ward is better, beat better people and won a high profile tourney with high profile names. I think I'm demoting Joe from SMW GOAT status.

Jones Jr was so talented in the division I can't really question his greatness there. being unbeaten, number 1 for 2 years and compiling a resume of: Toney, Malinga, Byrd, Pazienza, Thornton. I'd happily defend his status as a great.

Toney looked punch perfect against Barkley and put in what was the probably the first great performance the division had seen. he lost out to Jones who anyone would lose to and compiled a resume of: Barkley, Littles, DeWitt, Thornton, PC Williams - Jones Jr. (L). His status is more tenuous and had he not looked so perfect against Barkley I'd be reluctant to label hiom great but someone has to set the standard in a division and that someone was Toney at 168 imo.

 

**** it, me too!

The Pazienza win probably should never be mentioned in any discussion of Jones's merits, that was one of the most shameful mismatches in modern history. I agree that the Malinga win was a great one for Jones and very unfairly overlooked/underrated, especially considering the manner of victory. I don't rate the Byrd or Thornton wins very highly, routine 'Calzaghe-esque' defences those IMO.

Jones and Toney looked great at smw (I think it was the best Jones ever looked), but it would take more for me to consider them greats there. A title win and a couple of defences isn't enough. A unification or another couple of genuine top wins would've been useful. If we consider them smw greats, we open the door to any number of 'greats' with similar credentials.

 

*I suppose Jones does have a good case actually, considering how he performed against both Toney and Malinga, and considering how they performed in other fights at smw

 

Yeah i'm happy with calling jones a smw great.

Toney is more debatable though and I don't have great conviction with that one. Do you think it's fair to say he's the first man who performed great in the division?

Infact i'm not hundred percent sure if i'd call toney great in any division and if that's the case is it possible to call him great at all?