Who has the best most impressive win over Hopkins

Yes, I think he is the first man to perform great there. That I can think of at this moment in time, anyway.

I think he is definitely a great. 3-weight world champion, great longevity, strong win resume by contemporary standards, great ability at his mw/smw best.

 

Ward has a better resume than Joe? Please explain how?

 

That's the sort of intangible thing that makes me consider it. He set the bar really and that's an achievement in itself. Kinda like young griffo at featherweight.

I'm not sure how comfortable I am calling someone a great if they aren't a great in any division. That's just something i'm mulling over cos i'm concentrating on divisional history atm but I imagine there are a few p4p wildcards out there that I need to consider. It's not something i'll decide now anyways.

 

Has two wins better than any Joe achieved at smw - Kessler and Froch.

IMO, Ward's win over Kessler was much more dominant and convincing than Calzaghe's win over Kessler.

Froch is a much better fighter than Lacy or anyone else Calzaghe fought at smw.

Calzaghe-Eubank is the most overrated, misremembered and misinterpreted win in modern boxing history.

Ward: Kessler, Froch, Abraham, Bika, Green, Miranda

Calzaghe: Kessler, Lacy, Eubank, Mitchell, Reid

Calzaghe has more depth, Ward has the superior best wins.

Bear in mind that Ward won the Super Six in a couple of years, while Calzaghe took 9 years to unify, and was champ there 97-08. Ward's career so far makes Calzaghe's look very weak, if we compare the times spent compiling these resumes.

If Ward beats Dawson, his resume gets a huge boost, as Dawson is a p4p-calibre fighter.

It's only a matter of time til this is no longer a debate anymore. Ward is superseding Calzaghe at pace.

 

You seriously saying Manny Pacquiao may not be a great fighter Luf?!

Manny never stayed long enough to establish himself as a great in any division IMO, guy was growing all the time, moving all the time, going for the next challenge and the next payday and the next title. Does not in any way mean he wasn't a great fighter.

All his best wins were at different weights:

Sasakul - 112
Ledwaba - 122
Barrera 1 - 126
Morales 2 - 130
Marquez 2 - 130
Hatton - 140
Cotto - 145
Oscar - 147
...

What difference does it make? If he had stayed at 130 and fought a collection of superfeatherweight contenders, would that really have proved greatness more than moving up and devastating Cotto, Hatton et al?

I'd say quite the opposite myself.

 

He might be a great sfw, beating mab and em twice. Although I had him losing to jmm.

but yeah if anyone questions that policy it's him.

As I said it's just something i'm mulling over. Pac is great though. No doubt.

 

Not really, Joe beat a prime, undefeated Kessler in a fair fight.

Ward beat Kessler when he was inactive, and has been inactive since, suffering double vision and various injuries. Calzaghe showed the way, and established the blueprint.

Calzaghe clearly has the better win over Kessler.

Better than Eubank? No.

And a worse version of Kessler than Joe fought, still was enough to beat Froch.

It's a bit of a stretch to state this, then say that Ward's win over Kessler was so great. Eubank put up a great fight, against a green Calzaghe, after losing to Calzaghe Eubank turned in two more excellent performances against C.Thompson.

I'm not trying to be funny, but you must clearly have an agenda when you list Bika for Ward, but don't list him for Calzaghe who beat an undefeated Bika.

Also, you left off Brewer and Woodhall for Calzaghe who were former champs at that weight.

Also, can you tell me how Abraham, Green and Miranda are top SMW's? Better than the likes of Sheika, Starie and Veit? I don't think so.

Calzaghe had longevity and multiple title defences, that's an achievement in itself. Also, Calzaghe held all four major belts at one stage or another. It's not his fault the likes of Ottke wouldn't face him.

It's not about the speed you accomplish it in, it's about what you accomplish overall. And to this date, Calzaghe has accomplished more than Ward at SMW.

If you look at Hopkins at MW, all he had was longevity. He didn't beat any great MW's, I think Calzaghe's SMW reign is easily comparable if not better than Hopkins' MW reign.

Dawson is coming down from LHW. If Ward wanted the fight that would boost his resume at SMW, he should have sought out Bute before Froch got to him. It's no good hiding behind the 'Froch beat Bute, and Ward beat Froch' argument, he missed out on a big opportunity there to beat a champion with multiple defences at his weight.

I don't think it's a matter of time, for full credit he should have stepped up to LHW to beat Dawson. I know Dawson said he'd come down to SMW, but then you can't claim that Dawson is a top SMW, he hasn't fought there for years.

Though what Ward has done in 4 years, eclipses what Calzaghe did in his first four years no doubt

 

Same with carpentier now I think about it :think:

 

Even as a Pac fan, I think a 'great' would be a bit of a stretch. 8 fights, 7 wins, 1 loss, 1 single major world title fight. Marquez 2 and Morales 2 were great wins, but Barrera was faded by then, and the other wins were solid but unspectacular (Larios, Solis etc).

 

Dawson is, without doubt, a better fighter than anyone joe has faced.

 

Time will tell, but I rate the Hopkins Joe beat higher no doubt. With Eubank close as well

I also pick Ward to win a clear decision over Dawson

 

I cut this bit out as I can't really be bothered responding to the rest of your post, don't agree with pretty much everything you've said, so we'd be flogging dead horses with each other.


With regard to this section, do you seriously think a win over Bute would be better than a win over Dawson?

I think that's ****ing insane. Chad Dawson is a stellar fighter, and he doesn't suddenly become a nothing by voluntarily shedding 7lbs.

If Dawson hangs around at 168, I really hope he fights Bute. Then we'll see what the better smw scalp would be. :deal

 

I have it 6-4-2 Taylor in the first fight.

 

Well I took the time to respond to yours, but suit yourself.

You have to look at what the situations were at the time. Bute was very highly rated, and was racking up title defences at the same time as Ward. Undefeated and in his prime. Ward missed out on a big opportunity there.

Yes of course 7 lbs can be a huge difference! Chad is a big LHW, now he's coming down to SMW, that can be a big difference. As I stated, if Ward wanted full credit, he should have gone to LHW and become a two weight champ. We have to see how Chad looks on the night, if he looks strong and Ward beats him, then I'll give Ward full credit for the win. That would be huge for his resume and legacy

 

Please stop with this ****.

Just because a raw, green Calzaghe made hard work of Eubank does not mean that Eubank was a shadow of what he was at 160lbs in 1990-1.

Eubank lost twice to Steve Collins, went into semi-retirement for about 2-2 1/2 years, having only a couple of exhibition fights against bums in all that time, was meant to be coming back at cruiserweight when he got a call to fight Calzaghe at 2 weeks notice, changed his target weight from 190 to 168lbs, made the weight, fought, lost, then made the move up to 190lbs that he had intended to make, fought twice more, lost twice more, retired.

By the time Eubank fought Calzaghe, he hadn't beaten any top 10 fighters in any division for close to three full years (Wharton). Two weeks to cut from a 190 target to a 168 target?

Team Calzaghe chose Eubank at the 11th hour because they thought he was a shot name, little did they know he still had a fighting heart and would test a raw, green Calzaghe who did not possess the ring smarts he'd pick up later. That doesn't mean he fought a good Eubank, he didn't.

That win has more asterisks and question marks next to it than ANY other I can think of, just going by the facts of the circumstances. :deal