Prime Mike Tyson vs prime Lennox Lewis ?

I was watching some prime Tyson fights earlier...

I almost forgot how well his head movement dictated fighters missing and Tyson being able to capitalize...

At his very best, he sure was special... Would have a good chance at knocking Lennox out.

 

Steward is a great trainer but he also puts himself out there to get fighters. Cus didn't after he moved away from N.Y. because of his paranoia of the mafia. He was basically retired. How many people are going to go to Catskill, N.Y. to train ?
Manny does his thing domestic and globally.

Even Tyson was brought to him out of a chance meeting with Bobby Stewart. And even then, Stewart offered him to someone else first and then off to Cus.


the advantage I would say Steward definitely has is "style" ability: He can work with various styles while Cus, it seems (and maybe I'm wrong), his perfection was in one of the hardest styles to master.

His Mind however, there is no arguing with his brilliance according to many who have spoken up about his ability to understand the Psychology of boxing, the fighter, strategy, etc.
Ali didn't just call him up for kicks.

By the way, Steward fills his house with fighters as well...a lot more talented fighters.

 

I laugh when people cite the first round as a blue print for Tyson, just proves they know **** about boxing.

In the first round, Lewis laid the blue print for the rest of the fight. He absolutely manhandled Tyson. Leaned on him and showed him who the bigger, stronger guy was. Hell he even hurt Tyson in the first round.

This post is a colossal fail, from an analytical viewpoint regardless of who you think would win.

Truthfully I'm older than both of them so I was able to see them both in their primes, and when Tyson was in his prime up to the Douglas fight he was thought to be unbeatable.

But it turns out that that was a false, and if you weren't scare and actually fought him and had skills he could be beat. Holyfield proved this, so did Douglas.

Lewis having spared him when he was younger already knew this. But I wasn't sure until I watched them actually fight, and I knew than that Lewis (perhaps because of Manny) had the blue print of beating Tyson down pat. So basically that means Tyson had a punchers chance against Lewis.

If I were to put odds on this fight in their primes it would be along the lines of 60-40 Lewis.

That makes Tyson a very live underdog which given his speed and power, (and lack of ring smarts, size, and a plan B, ) sounds about right.

 

Lewis actually has a better inside game than Tyson. Tyson fought at mid-range. Lewis had unrated strength on the inside and a hellacious uppercut. As for who is stronger, by all accounts this isn't even close. Lewis is far stronger than Tyson. Not as fast, and Tyson my come close to hitting as hard, but in terms of sheer strength Lewis has far more strength than Tyson. He also has at least 6" in size and 30lbs on him, so it's to be expected.

 

Did you ever see my thread with what Tyson was like leading up to Douglas?
For example: one tidbit was about him getting his ass handed to him by none other than Trevor Berbick in sparring. Yeah...Tyson was surely fit to fight.

you don't think being out of shape has anything to do with how a fighter fights?

And 3 years in prison as well?


"Fantasy" fights tends to take fighters at their peaks.


by the way, ANYONE CAN BE BEAT but the whole thing about if you are not afraid of Tyson you can win is bull****. I posted up fighters interviews where fighters said they weren't afraid of Tyson.
Ribalta was one example.

Ruddock was a great one considering this was Tyson post Rooney, and post Douglas and the mystique was gone. Ruddock was actually the one that demanded the fight. He went up to Tyson and said he is next.


And if we want to play this game about psychology...maybe Ali falls into this as well. Anyone that didn't put up with his mouth, anyone that didn't allow him to get in their head, Ali can be beaten...as shown by Frazier (I), Norton, Spinks, Holmes, Berbick...since I guess we aren't considering peak anymore.
I can go on an on with this even with Lennox Lewis.



Blue-print for Lewis vs. Tyson when the met was simple: Avoid getting hit with anything big in the first few rounds, Tyson will tire, and you have him. The Man was shot. Not much to it.

However, Manny points to one of his other fighters as the blue-print...TUCKER...although Tucker did lose a UD to Tyson and managed to get his face smashed somehow by a 5'11 fighter with a short reach despite being 6'5+


Odds: 60/40 in favor of Lewis...could be.

I was just trying to cut out some of the b.s.

 

I don't mind you critizing my comment on Tyson - Douglas because I agree it was not a peak Tyson, and he still came very close to pulling it off. Nor can one use any post-prison fights as much of an agrument because it's a different Tyson we're discussing.

But I stand by the rest of my post, and you're comments are valid.

But that said I'm not sure that comparing Tucker to Lewis is at all helpful considering the discrepency in skills.

In general I like your post and I think it accomplished what you intended it to.

 

The thing is, I can see Lewis winning but not so much by KO. I think he would actually try to make it a chess match instead of trying to break him down and out because during Tyson's peak, he was hard to hit solid with more than one punch, let alone just one...specifically after he saw what you had and could adjust. You had to take him past the mid-point and even with that, during those days, he used up a lot of energy earlier to break you down so that you weren't the same either Mentally and Physically. The way around that, probably is to do what Lennox does best...tie up and lean your weight on him. Tire him out.

But even with that, people should really pay close attention to who was doing the clinching in Tyson's fights...even against the big guys.
It kinda reminded me of how Dempsey did it during that one sparring session with Big Bill Tate. You spar like this and it builds your own strength and endurance. Tyson did this himself in sparring. That's why he brought in big strong guys like McCall.
And that's why I would say you may be able to use the Holyfield fight: Holyfield imposed his own strength and control from Tyson. And although Tyson was stronger mentally during his peak years because it comes down to training the Mind and Body...one does still have to wonder if eventually he would cave in even if it took more than half the fight. He did get frustrated and complained in his corner when he didn't initiate the clinch and the opponent did...like Tucker, like Smith. But that's where Rooney came in. At least for Tucker. there was no hope with Smith.

And even when he was noted as declining and was running on brute strength...like against Ruddock, he showed he could take bombs. Even Douglas it took him until the 10th to knock him out and that was Tyson taking combination shot after shot and had a one eye closed and exhausted. I don't see Lewis fighting Tyson like Douglas did unless Tyson shows up in that same flat shape...but even then...how about the Tua fight unless we are pulling Lewis's peak years before that which is fair?

It's one of those fights I never see with a clear decisive victor. I see possibilities.

the key weapon for Lewis (to me) would be the uppercut. People tend to talk about the Jab but his Jab wasn't quite spectacular. Holmes once made a not so nice comment on it. Basically acknowledging that Lewis paws with it to much and that can be exploited. And I would think especially with someone like Tyson. If you throw your Jab at him...make it count. Don't leave it out there because he can Jab you back and even get under it.


But if there is one thing you could take from Douglas is that I really liked how he used his Jab and feet. He was able to Jab, throw a right hand, and he could set up the combination and then pop back out of distance while throwing the Jab to keep Tyson off instead of just pulling back. When Tyson got in close, he had the option of beating him off with combinations or tying him up. Of course, I'm not sure if this would work with a properly trained Tyson given Tyson himself was all to willing to throw one shot and hurry up and clinch. When he reached for that clinch, Douglas lit him up. Douglas wasn't getting much resistance back. And except for that one brief moment with the uppercut, I'm not sure how many traps Tyson was able to set-up in that fight.

 

Lewis wins 8/10 against any version of Tyson. Its a terrible style match up for Tyson - LL has a big height & reach advantage and he kows how to use them. It'll be jab, right hand combinationns on the outside and the usual smothering tactics when Mike gets in range. Enevitably Tyson will get frustrated by this and will be left to resort to pointless wild chsrges that amount to nothing. I give Tyson a 2/10 shot because of the punchers chance but that is generous since LL only got sparked by guys he took lightly.

Styles make fights, and this one doesn't work well for Tyson regardless of what his fans think here.

 

the only thing lewis does on the inside is a quick right hook to the body, followed by a uppercut, left then another right. lewis had a powerful uppercut, but he telegraphed it and is overated.

i do think its wrong to say lewis inside game was better than tysons

 

Tyson was better at mid range than he was at inside.
Lewis his uppercuts were very dangerous, though you can't hit small guys as hard with an uppercut as you can big guys. (Lewis was too big.)

Inside Lewis =/> Tyson.(Maybe a bit better)

 

I only have Ali beating a prime and game Lewis. Maybe Holmes would have a shot too.

 

Well at the end of the day it all boils down to probabilities, since the fight is never going to happen. A brief comment on Lewis' jab. During the course of his career it varied considerably, from him pawing with it to set up the overhand right, to him virtually stopping Vitali in his tracks with it.

 

Vitali is 6'8, Tyson is 5'11. It's different to shoot the jab straight at an opponent (given Lewis's own height) than to try to shoot it downwards (which lowers your own center of gravity which Tyson likes to get you to do by trying to make it even lower by crouching lower). He is also a lot faster and slicker wit his head/body movement than Vitali.

You can't leave your jab out there. He'll set you up. He'll set a trap. Did you see what happened to Carl Williams when he did it?
BOOM; down goes Williams. He did this with many others to connect. Tyson can also use his own Jab which he did with taller guys like Green, Tucker, etc.

1:25 to see it in real time and hear the sound of the punch and 3:12+ is the replay


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QTVHCFOtcM[/ame]


So, I feel you have to use the Jab to punch through his skull and pop that head back.But it would be a lot trickier to do than what Douglas was able to do against a stationary out of shape target. Although I liked how Douglas could pop out of range after throwing so that Tyson couldn't return fire. but again, a stationary, lethargic version.

I still think a key weapon would be the uppercut Lewis has. He would have to Jab of course but lure him into getting tagged with that Uppercut. Now if Tyson figures this out like he seemed to usual do, it's up to Lewis to use his brain and figure out more ways to use it.

Tricky fight.

So in this fight, you could see the good and bad spots of Lewis at his peak. The Good parts are incredible for such a big Man and you could see it troubling Tyson. The bad spots, you could see Tyson taking advantage of.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMytoZsxqTY[/ame]



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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emgq4p-aUac[/ame]

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You are talking out of your arsehole mate.

You seriously think Douglas won just because he wasn't scared of Mike? Lots of guys weren't scared of him and all got beaten.

Tyson didn't look himself from the minute he stepped through the ropes, surely you could see that?

I used the first round of the Lewis fight as an example because it was a tiny glimmer of Mike's old aggressive style and Lewis was struggling to cope with it, Mike was getting close to him pretty much with ease and even landing some good shots, even at that advanced stage of decline.

Then from round two he just gave up, allowing Lewis to take over, the old mike would not have given up, he'd have gotten more ferocious, that's if Lewis even made it out of the first round.

 

Prime Tyson :bbb