Louis would beat Ali

Burt, I for one can't take dyna seriously because he has a serious agenda when it comes to running down Ali and his competition. (For example, according to him Frazier was featherfisted. No, I'm not making that up: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=429772 )

It's to the point that he's either purely driven by that agenda, he's trolling to just try to get a reaction, or dyna is someone's ALT having a fun time making ridiculous posts. (Either trolling or this are the most likely answers, judging by some of his other threads.)

Thus, I refuse to take anything he says seriously.

 

This is the only fight I can think of that I have very strong opinions on in the way that when I think of it from a pro-Ali stance, I think of all the reasons Ali would whip Louis and that Louis would look foolish.

Then, when I think of it from a pro-Louis position, I have the same strong opinion that Louis would be putting his hands all over Ali and all the reasons he would win.

It's strange that I have such conviction about both sides...

Usually when I think of a competitive fight that I feel is pretty even or could go either way, I shrug my shoulders and think "well, I think such-and-such, but I'm not married to the idea"...

I could take either side of the debate and I feel I could make a solid case for either guy.

Overall, I think both guys are a tad overrated for different reasons, and both had their share of weaknesses the other could exploit.


I don't think there is a wrong answer if someone is giving realistic, sane reasons why...

 

Louis technically flawless. I give Louis the win. With Blackburn in his corner no one in boxing history could have beat him(Maybe Tyson/Cus)

 

W, having taken your advice I read the above post you cite, I do not agree with his synopsis of Frazier[ who I saw as an amateur and in the FOTC] iun 1971...Not at all. I do not know dyna's background but his great lucid take of Joe Louis was in my eyes SPOT On...I have been following Joe Louis for many years since I was a pup, and I would bet my life, that the prime Joe Louis of the Max Baer fight [triple left hook] tigerlike in his reflexis, would assuredly catch Clay / Ali sooner or later and ko Ali with not a one punch
type left hook ala Cooper, Frazier,or a heavy one punch at a time from
an Ernie Shavers or ponderous George Foreman, but a pulverizing
two handed combos from this Joe Louis right on the button...No man ever could endure the combos of the Joe Louis at his best...Ali never was caught with such blurring fast salvos that Louis would unload on Ali's chin, and
still survive...Why do you think the best fighter I ever saw Ray Robinson was so great a puncher ? Because his attack was deadly in it's blurring speed and accuracy that when caught his opponent could not clear his head
before being hit with many more vicious punches...Same with the bigger Louis who hit with trigger speed and force, that Ali never, never was hit with....Look for example what Louis did to as tough an hombre as Arturo Godoy in their rematch in 1940...Godoy who I once saw training later on in Stillmans,was hit with powerful uppercuts almost lifting him off the floor, and he was Tkod...No one who Louis hurts survives when he was at his best...Ali had trouble with Ken Norton because Norton's manager Eddie Futch told Norton to jab, jab, Ali upsetting his timing...Norton beat Ali doing this...Well no one ever had as hard a jab as Joe louis, whom Jimmy Braddock described a Louis jab as " like having a light bulb exploding in your face ". Taught to him by the great "Chappie" Blackburn...So I still pick
a MOTIVATED Joe Louis of Max Baer,Max Schmeling #2, to catch up to any version of Ali, and stop him...Yessir...Cheers.

 

Burt, I have a had time seeing that happen in my mental image of what the fight would be like, but I certainly do think you're right in that Louis would without a doubt be the best two handed attacker Ali faced, and the best combination puncher. If he did manage to get Ali in trouble and went to work with both hands in combination, he could get just about anyone out of there or into serious trouble.

Between Ali's speed, survival skills, and the fact that he could take it as well as anyone who ever laced up the gloves, it's just a bit hard to see a guy who for most of his career was methodical, stalking, and did much of his best work via counterpunching getting to him. (Granted, in the fights you mention Louis turned it up another notch or two, and would be extremely dangerous for any fighter in history.)

If Ali wasn't able to take punishment as well as he did, and wasn't so skilled at surviving danger and gutting it out I'd probably give Louis the benefit of the doubt. As it is, I think Ali is a safer bet, although probably not so safe that I'd put money on it.

In the end, to each his own. If there's a boxing heaven, there has to be a way to see scenarios like this play out.

Thanks for the reply, cheers.

 

Bold... But is it daring?

 

Louis always had trouble with stick and move guys and Ali does this better than anyone at the weight. He'd use his superior speed and reach to tag Louis from the outside and then move, rinse and repeat. He'd also have the chin and heart to stand up to Louis' shots although Louis certainly has the capability of KOing Ali I don't see it happening.

 

You talking Max Baer? He was scared to death of Louis and didn't land more than 10 punches the entire fight, although he did give Louis a good headbutt. He also openely quit (somethign Ali wouldnt do), was a very unskilled slugger (something Ali wasn't) and had no foot movement (Ali has the best foot movement of the weight class). Also Ali was bigger than Baer.

I dunno if he was being sarcastic or not but Ali was no powderpuff puncher, he has some snap in his punches, threw alot of them usually from unorthodox angles and with blinding speed. It's well within the realm of possibility that Ali stops Louis.

 

Disagree.

Joe Louis wouldnt pressure Ali the way Joe Frazier did. Frazier was much faster moving in and much better at cutting off the ring. Smokin Joe also came in low bobbing and weaving and whipped lefthooks in the blindspot in Ali vision.

Joe Louis was more conventional. He stood up and used his jab. He would play into Ali`s hands IMO. Ali would probably be the stronger man as well so if he did get inside he could tie up Joe.

I think Ali outboxes Louis for 7-8 rounds and then stops from accumulation.

 

I agree 100% with Ali on his bike thing. It is probably the most exaggerated thing about him, he did not have the stamina to dance for a full 15 rounds no way jose. Watch any of his fights by round 5 he's flat footed and relies on his ultra quick head movement/leaning back to not get hit, which could be quite disasterous against Louis, but I still pick Ali.

 

ali's right hand will be having a field day like it did v foreman. movement is key. he won't be static or in punching range to let louis get set to take his shots. louis will have to move as fast as ali on his feet to have any chance. ali will be continually on the move. peak 60s ali never did no ropeadope. he will be in and out using great lateral movement. conn's fault late on and getting caught was stopping his lateral movement and staying in easy target punching range. ali's extra reach will be a big factor in louis taking more shots. last thing- ali was NEVER ko'd and he fought very big hitters.

 

Spinks and Berbick fights when he was suffering from Parkinsons, seriously? Notice I didn't mention Louis late career losses here just the fights near to his prime

Young inexperienced Ali wasn't nearly beaten by Doug Jones more so than Louis was nearly beaten by Godoy or Farr, Godoy seemingly having the best case for a win.

Ali wasn't nearly knocked out by Cooper more so than Louis was nearly knocked out by Braddock or Buddy Baer

Louis did lose to Walcott and Schmelling and nearly lost to within his prime years but also beat them. Ali lost and beat Frazier/Norton just past his prime years and also beat them. Ali has much more in common with Walcott/Schmelling than Louis does with those men

All this doesn't take account of the fact Louis was a plodder and Ali had some of the fastest feet in HW history. That Louis had problem with fast lead rights and counter rights and Ali had 1 of the best of those in HW history. What does Louis have to bother Ali? His feet are too slow, Ali has a far quicker jab, far quicker hands, much much better use of angles, better reactions and is taller and rangier

Ali breaks the rulebook but no Louis was not the more skilled otherwise he wouldn't be be knocked down so much and getting outboxed by Schmelling, Conn and Walcott. As for left hooks, yes Ali is open to them, not as much as Louis is open to right

If we had punch stats figures it would show Ali's connect percent and defensive percent to be superior.

 

If Ali was more skilled than Louis, I guess he wouldn't have been knocked down (and almost out) by Cooper, Banks, Frazier (twice, even though one of them counted as a 'slip'), Chuck Wepner, and probably Norton wouldn't break his jaw. Funny how that goes both ways, huh?