boxing is Dying in Mexico and USA

I would have thought that the brief inglorious mma career of an over the hill Ray Mercer could have taught us all something about this subject, but I guess that is too much to hope. Ray Mercer was a retired pro boxer with two fights in MMA. The first, he knocked out a heavyweight champ of theirs with one punch in the first seconds of a fight.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUx9OE7DZAo[/ame]

The second he was tackled to the ground in the opening seconds and submitted in about a minute.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahOLe5z3Ek[/ame]

The lesson here is that when two incompatible martial arts styles meet the one who takes the initiative and gets off first is usually the winner, because the other guy has no answer for it. If the boxer gets off first he wins and if the wrestler gets off first he wins.

Grapplers like to say that most fights go to the ground at some point. Not true, but some do. Therefore, if your idea is really to train for self-defense then it makes sense to have a passing familiarity with some kind of wrestling, judo, or jiu jitsu. That said, you probably don't want to use those grappling techniques as a first line of defense. You want to keep threats at a distance, and stay on your feet in case things go badly for you. Boxing keeps you mobile, and gives you more options.

Boxing allows you to fight multiple opponents, whereas a wrestling discipline is only good against a single opponent, for instance a tournament setting, where you know you won't be overwhelmed by someone's friends. Boxing is also faster, since punching takes less than a second and wrestling moves generally take more time to set up correctly. This is one reason why boxing matches are three minutes and UFC matches are five minutes long. So the environment is key to the success of the different techniques. However, both styles are probably quickly applied to people with no self-defense training.

In recent mma statistics compiled by Fightmatrix.com there is a clear trend toward striking winning more fights than grappling. What seems to be most important is not mastery of a ground game but the ability to stay on your feet and avoid take down attempts by your opponent. When confronted by a superior grappler, all you have to do is stay on your feet to win. Basically, this means that a boxer just needs to learn how to sprawl and disengage from a clinch and he has all the tools to beat most anybody.

 

Originally Posted by Gained
i keep hearing the old 'boxing is dead' nonsense from time to time and i have to chuckle to myself,Since when is boxing dying actually? Since the Klitschkos? Since Lennox? Since Tyson? Since Ali? since the 'world series' ended?
Well, let’s check, boxing has apparently been dying since its inception a looong time now!

“Boxing right now is dying with its superstar Muhammad Ali fighting competitors not worthy to try for his crown.”
Black Belt Magazine, 1976

“Legitimate professional wrestling has died. Boxing is dying. Swimming, tennis, golf, modern dance, and gymnastics are growing.”
James A Baley, 1974

Question: “Is boxing dying?”
Archie Moore (multiple title champion and ATG):
“Yes, it must be. They told me it was dying when I got into it as a professional in 1936. I think it started dying at about the dawn of history. So I guess it is still dying.“
Archie Moore, 1972

“And when the black man starts to excel in a particular sport the question starts floating around: “Is boxing dying?”
Eldridge Cleaver, 1969

“With the gradual dying of boxing as a national sport, judo seems the perfect replacement“
Black Belt Magazine, 1964

“The experts have been saying for years that boxing is dying because kids no longer are hungry, because boxing no longer is the way for a poor kid to get rich quick.”
LA Times, 1963

“Boxing is not dying”, said Jack Dempsey sadly, “it’s dead“. Even as the old champ spoke last week the corpse of a one lively sport was just barely twitching… Jack Dempsey was not the only old champ to grieve. Mickey Walker and Gene Tunney were equally mournful… “It’s gone, boxing. Today you show any style and they put you on TV. They’ll take anyone.” Neither Tunney nor Walker knew quite what to do with the corpse.”
Life Magazine, 1961

“Radio is not “causing the demise of big-time boxing“, John Ford, WTCN-Blue newscaster, told his audience in rebuttal to an attack on radio and boxing, published by Dick Cullum, sports editor of the Minneapolis Daily Times, 10 days ago.
Cullum had charged that because sponsors want their full time on the air in which to get in their commercials, fight broadcasts go without knockouts these days and become uninteresting dancing exhibitions.”
The Billboard, 1944

“The game of boxing is dying today because the boys do not know how to box. There is no one to teach them how and they won’t work anyway”.
LA Times, 1940

“Professional boxing is dying a natural death“
LA Times, 1913

“As it is, the school of boxing is rapidly dying out, and when the professors of the present day have passed away it will be hard to say where the new ones are to come from.”
Professor Ned Donelly, The art of boxing, 1879

Obviously boxing fans are the worst fans of the world.
And boxing experts are the worst experts of the world.
One post on a boxing forum sums up the whole situation:
“They’ve been saying that “today’s heavyweights” suck since the beginning of the 20th century.

In the 1990s they b*tched that you had a 45 year old heavyweight champion and a near champion in Larry Holmes (who nearly beat McCall).

In the 1980s they b*tched that Holmes didn’t have anyone to fight and the post-Holmes pre-Tyson era was one of the worst in history- according to the writers of that era.

People call the 1970s the “Golden Era” today, well -they didn’t call it that then. They b*tched that an old, shot, Ali was champion and the Joe Louis would have wiped the floor up with the bums fighting in that era. People complained about Ali and Frazier making so much money (2.5 million) for their first fight.

The 1960s- hell, a 40 year old sonny Liston was arguably the best fighter in the world after Ali was suspended- no one, including Frazier’s management wanted to fight him. Floyd Patterson was also a top contender late in that decade.

The 1950s? Gene Tunney once stated in a Look Magazine article that Jack Dempsey would KO Marciano, Charles, Walcott, and Rex Lane on the SAME night.

The 1940s? Read the the old Ring Magazine articles about how bad the heavies were back then. Jack Johnson said that not only were the contenders lousy but Joe Louis wasn’t any good neither. He said that not only would he beat Louis but Jeffries, Corbet, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, Joe Choynski, and a bunch of other contenders of his era would easily beat Louis.
The 1930s ? Do I need to go on? So find me a time in history when the public thought that the heavyweights of that era were any good”

could it just be that boxing is thriving on a global scale now? and the americans are having to fight diverse competition for a change.

 

The dude uses a straight up boxing stance. When he does kick, it's very few times a match, under 5, and it is a leg kick with his front leg.

And usually when he does it, it's cringeworthy.

So he wins with boxing and staying on his feet.

 

I definitely agree with this, and I think it explains why there are so many super heavyweights in boxing right now. For most of the century boxing was practically a regional American sport. For the first two decades it was illegal throughout much of Europe, and then when the communists took over it was illegal in the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and their satellites. You see a big jump in competition when the color bar is raised in the thirties and then another in the 90s when the Soviet Union dissolves. The talent pool is really world wide for the first time, in a way it wasn't ever before.

Part of the reason the US was so dominant during those years, say 1945-1990 is because we had the biggest middle class. But with the rise of China, India, parts of Africa and South America into economic prosperity we see a lot of those populations have the leisure to take up competitive sports. Expect to see a lot more European, Asian, and African champions as the years go by and fewer Americans.

 

You know, I've been thinking lately that perhaps the modern boxing stance isn't right for mma fighters. With the grappling and smaller gloves, they should maybe go back to the stances and punches of the 19th century when there was more clinching and throwing. The 4 oz mma gloves don't actually punch much better than boxing gloves because you are stripping the padding from the wrists, palm, and fingers, not the knuckles themselves; but this would make the gloves less effective for catching and cushioning blows. Mma fighters should probably carry their hands lower and further out from their body than a typical boxer would.

 

This is how some of the best boxers fight anyway. Take a look at B Hop's stance.

 

I don't think that Boxing per se is dying. I think there is a general decline in participation in a sport as rough as Boxing in the US. Who allows their kid to become Ali? Who wants to become Ali? The more we learn about head trauma the fewer of us think Boxing is a rational path. Especially with our crap healthcare situation.

Even at its most tame (sparring), Boxing is fairly brutal if you suck at or half-ass it (no bag work, road work, etc...). Guys Boxing for "something to do" get weeded out fairly quickly if they aren't putting in work training. Especially if the coaches aren't decent people.

IME and IMHO, MMA gyms are more about "participation" and "friendship". Guys of all levels roll and the striking side is quite under developed/trained so guys of dissimilar levels train fairly safely. It allows a wider breadth of competitor to participate due to if you don't like getting your noggin' rocked you can always roll. MT striking again is less head KO oriented so it too allows for participation of more people. This is a great plus for them financially.

Another note is that many MMA gyms are just that, MIXED Martial Arts. Boxing is usually one of the programs offered. In many, Boxing is the flagship program. I have personally seen many a Boxing dabbler quit and thrive in the BJJ and MT side of MMA gyms. It is all good for the combat sport community.

 

Outstanding observations.

Even in MT? Hands determine most KO's.

Ground game was completely unknown or completely modified for judged sport (not combat) in the West. You see the gradual evolution of the MMA fighter from Strikers being useless, BJJ dominating, Wrestlers gaining dominance, Strikers returning to prominence. It is the circle that brings us back to what we intuitively know from birth... (skilled) striking ends fights.

A Boxer who does not respect MMA will get destroyed, as he should. A Boxer who respects the ground game, kicks, and trains appropriately has a good set of tools to do quite well in any situation. At that point though, are you a Boxer or an MMA athlete? :think

 

Kimbo vs mercer was a work, it was not even a pro fight it was an "exhibition" . It was basically a pro wrestling match.

 

This man has created the framework for world peace.

Get into a Boxing stance and fight like a man!

 

They're already drifting away from MMA. Extreme sports is where its at.

 

Im sorry but where I live there is 4 boxing gyms and there all very crowded. Just to add I live in a seven square mile city. MMA has perhaps reach it's peak with popularity and will stay in the mix. Other than that it only has two stars that could make decent numbers currently, but they still need to pack the event with many undercards. Boxing is what everyone loves deep inside, it runs in most peoples blood whether they know it or not. Is the sweet science which no sport could compare to.

 

Are they forgetting what grandpa Mercer did to Tim Sylvia a former UFC champ