Boxing myth #2190 Sugar Ray fought Durans fight in Montreal

Boxed Ears · Nov 8, 2012

The real myth is that Leonard wasn't weight-drained for that fight...

lufcrazy · Nov 8, 2012

good thread.

Leonard was a runner once in his whole career and that was against an undertrained ill prepared Duran in the rematch.

Leonard saw himself as quicker, bigger and stronger and wanted to fight this way, the wrong fight is just a lame excuse.

Hands of Iron · Nov 9, 2012

lufcrazy said: ↑

good thread.

Leonard was a runner once in his whole career and that was against an undertrained ill prepared Duran in the rematch.

Leonard saw himself as quicker, bigger and stronger and wanted to fight this way, the wrong fight is just a lame excuse.
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As is the notion Leonard was somehow "green" after running through numerous 147 contenders (Floyd Sr, Shields, Gant, Ranzany, Price, Chiaverini) before taking on and beating an undefeated Wilfred Benitez at Caesar's Palace. The man was ready and in top shape. If anything, Roberto was closer to being past his best. He was already two divisions up from lightweight as it was.

Hands of Iron · Nov 9, 2012

Still think SRL is the #2 Welterweight of All-Time though.

Which is another 'myth' that should be addressed: Duran didn't "move up to fight Leonard" in the sense that he'd never fought at 147 -- How the hell could he!? He beat Palomino in a masterclass shutout type performance at The Garden a full year before from the fight in Montreal, as well as wiping out Joseph Nsubuga. He was the #2 rated Welterweight at the time Leonard took the fight.

Leonard initially wanted to unify with #1/WBA titlist Pepino Cuevas before DON got involved. Hearns took care of him two months later.

Boxed Ears · Nov 9, 2012

Boxed Ears said: ↑

The real myth is that Leonard wasn't weight-drained for that fight...
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147 4 Green smokes im. 145 Duran looses CLOSE.

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Cotto: 146 Clottey 1 pound 2 lite. 145 Pac looses by knockout. Coinsidense? I think NOT!

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Leonard comes in regular he embearasses Druan. COINSIDENSE?!

recycling · Nov 9, 2012

Duran most overrated fighter with ready made excuses. Can someone explain how he got a boxing lesson from Benitez and bum lang without lame excuses? I think it was incompetence

Hands of Iron · Nov 9, 2012

TKO6 said: ↑

leonard never hit his true prime though because of the retirement due to eye injury. You know a lot about boxing, so you surely must know that Leonard isn't a Tyson type(ala early peak) Sugar Ray would have gotten better and better if he never had that eye retirement.

We missed out on what could have been some surreal superhuman peak from two fighters.
Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard.

Also 27 fights in the 80's era vs 70+ fights of experience do play a factor. Leonard wasn't green but he was just kicking into gear heading toward what could have been WelterWeight immortality if he had continued unhindered by bad luck.

I believe that if Leonard wasn't forced to retire, we would have seen his true peak around 84ish and that version of Leonard would have been something deliciously Goden.

Too bad we never saw Super Sugar.
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I don't disagree. I can't think highly enough of the guy as a fighter.

It's prime in the sense of what we actually got from him to judge off of.

dftaylor · Nov 9, 2012

MichiganWarrior said: ↑

Nooooo!

Sugar Ray Leonard started off as a speedy slugger early on in his career. He loves to trade and even interviewed by Brian Kenny stated as an amatuer he tried his best to emulate Joe Frazier.

When he fought Duran he fought how he had fought most of his career at that point. As a guy with superior athleticism and power who tried to take you out with blazing hand speed. Infact Sugar Ray given his abilities was very much a good not great outboxer. People remember his fights against Duran 2 and Hagler where he was able to frustrate with his foot and hand speed. But forget he was being outboxed by Hearns before he went classic Sugar Ray slugger mode and took him out.
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Well, you'd only say it's a myth if you're an idiot. Ray was an aggressive boxer puncher, that's true. But even the commentators mentioned that he was unusually flat-footed in the early rounds.

Ray did fight Duran's fight, because he wasn't as good at the inside brawling as Hands of Stone was. It was the wrong decision tactically because he had other techniques he could have used early on. Instead he obliged a tougher, stronger and more nuanced opponent at his best dimension.

You're also wrong on the Hearns fight. He was being outboxed by Hearns because Hearns is one of the greatest boxers ever.

Thread Stealer · Nov 9, 2012

Hands of Iron said: ↑

Still think SRL is the #2 Welterweight of All-Time though.

Which is another 'myth' that should be addressed: Duran didn't "move up to fight Leonard" in the sense that he'd never fought at 147 -- How the hell could he!? He beat Palomino in a masterclass shutout type performance at The Garden a full year before from the fight in Montreal, as well as wiping out Joseph Nsubuga. He was the #2 rated Welterweight at the time Leonard took the fight.

Leonard initially wanted to unify with #1/WBA titlist Pepino Cuevas before DON got involved. Hearns took care of him two months later.
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I know, it's funny when people say "Duran moved up from lightweight to fight Leonard".

His last fight at lightweight was like 28 months before he fought Leonard. :roll:

Hands of Iron · Nov 9, 2012

Thread Stealer said: ↑

I know, it's funny when people say "Duran moved up from lightweight to fight Leonard".

His last fight at lightweight was like 28 months before he fought Leonard. :roll:
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Well unfortunately, 90% of the people who weigh in on this topic are either wildly biased towards one of them or misinformed. I keep it 50:50.

lufcrazy · Nov 10, 2012

wott said: ↑

Leonard even says at about 6.00 the next time he fights Duran he is going to 'do it my way'. the inference is clear: first time he fought Duran's fight.
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Well then he fought durans fight his whole career.

duranimal · Nov 10, 2012

Hands of Iron said: ↑

Well, at least you know it's impartial. I go to bat for both of them depending on the topic or detractions being made. SRL did fight Duran's fight, and it was the woefully wrong course to take. The sticking point is that it was the fight he had fully intended to take part in beforehand. Stonehands wrote a few paragraphs on this fight in his Gods of War Duran feature:

Durans strategy was drilled into him. He was instructed to be elusive against the jab, close the distance, crowd Leonard, and hammer the body. Leonards aggressive strategy was not expected. It made things more not less difficult to cope with for precisely the reasons that Dundee had alluded to good little guys dont beat good big guys. In this fight, Durans not the puncher, he added, my guy is. Their respective knockout percentages over their previous five fights confirmed this: Durans was 40%, Leonards was 100%. Leonard stated that he planned on standing and fighting more than expected. They all think Im going to run. Im not, he said to New York Magazine, Im not changing my style at all hell be beaten to the punchthose are the facts, he continued, Whats going to beat Roberto Duran is Sugar Ray Leonard.

Dundee substantiated this in his autobiography. Leonards strategy became certain from the moment that he watched the films and deconstructed Durans style. Duran, he said, was a heel-to-toe guy. He takes two steps to get to you. So the idea was not to give him those two steps, not to move too far away because the more distance you gave him, the more effective he was. What you cant do in the face of Durans aggression was run from it, because then he picks up momentum. My guy wasnt going to run from him.

So there you have it.

Leonards strategy in Montreal was deliberate, and sound. After the fight, Dundee and Leonard revised history and a willing press has gone along with it ever since. Weve been spoon-fed a fable that has long since crystallized into orthodox boxing lore. It is the archetypal image of the Latin bully who tricked the All-American Hero into an alley fight, and it sprang from the idea that Leonard did not fight his fight because Duran challenged his masculinity. The problem is that it is at complete odds with statements made by Leonard and Dundee about Leonards clear physical advantages and the strategy that would be formed around those advantages. It contradicts Dundees earlier statements about Durans high level of skill and it contradicts statements that both had made immediately after the bout before they had time to think about posterity: Youve got to give credit to Duran, Dundee told journalists, he makes you fight his fight. When asked why he fought Durans fight, Leonard said he had no alternative.

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:good TRUTH:deal

JASPER · Nov 10, 2012

PityTheFool said: ↑

Strange that he said several times himself that he fought the wrong fight.
Not sure if you mean he fought the wrong fight or just "Duran's fight"
So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...IjHzRdfnPAPDXwEAA&sig2=KG8SZ2gX-GGhcpftVGC1Lw

But in June 1980, in Montreal, I lost because I lost composure against Roberto Duran, one of the most intimidating fighters ever. He would stare, push, shove, curse me, and then curse my wife. I allowed him to take me out of my game plan. Once you can control your emotion, you will reap benefits. Maintain composure. At that time, I only had 27 bouts versus 70 for Duran.

(Video showed Duran taunting Leonard, by pointing at his own chin during the fight, inviting Leonard to try to hit it. Duran taunted him repeatedly, even after the last round, before the decision. Duran won, 145 to 144.)

That hurt. Physically, it did hurt. Mentally, it hurt more. It was my first loss. The first time I had to deal with BAD. After that particular fight, I contemplated retirement. I questioned myself. I went on vacation, and I thought a lot about how to respond to the setback. I thought about how many times I worked at a certain level. I had fought the wrong fight against the man they called Hands of Stone.

I had to change the way his image affected me. Dont look into his eyes, the press told me. I knew his eyes could not hurt me. It was his hands that I had to watch, when I fought him again, less than 6 months later.

(Video: Leonard got out of the corners more quickly, and landed blows on Duran, several times, hard. Finally, Leonard wound up dramatically with his right, and hit Duran hard with a quick left. Eventually Duran signaled he had enough. No mas, he told the referee. No more. Duran quit. Leonard won.)

When I was training, I saw that first loss in my head and knew it could happen again. I trained hard.

The day of the fight, I had extra inspiration. I was named after Ray Charles. You saw in the video, he was there to sing the National Anthem before the fight. I got to meet my namesake. And after Ray Charles finished singing, he came over, hugged me, and offered brief words of inspiration.
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PTF, people do not get the fact that SRL let Duran get under his skin so he did not fight the fight that his team had laid out . . . he wanted to go out and hurt this guy. To say he fought basically the same way leading up to fight is like saying your trainer is useless after you reach championship level because you can never make adjustments going into aor during a fight. Saying that SRL fought Duran's fight does not diminish the accomplishment of Duran, it only shows that he was able to get into Leonard's head like Ali was able to Forman.

PityTheFool · Nov 10, 2012

JASPER said: ↑

PTF, people do not get the fact that SRL let Duran get under his skin so he did not fight the fight that his team had laid out . . . he wanted to go out and hurt this guy. To say he fought basically the same way leading up to fight is like saying your trainer is useless after you reach championship level because you can never make adjustments going into aor during a fight. Saying that SRL fought Duran's fight does not diminish the accomplishment of Duran, it only shows that he was able to get into Leonard's head like Ali was able to Forman.
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Jasper,I've always been of the opinion that it was all,as you say,that Cholo had got under Ray's skin and as I said at the start of the thread,I believed that Ray went against the plan that Janks and Ange had laid out.
But,when someone like Hands Of Iron,who for me is one of the most reliable posters on the whole forum,comes out with fairly strong evidence that they had planned to go toe to toe all along,even a Ray diehard like me is going to listen.
I'm not sure where you think I'm coming from here mate.

Do you really think it felt good to put my hands up and say that Michigan Warrior was right and I was wrong?:gsg
He's big headed enough as it is!:twisted:
It's been a very informative thread though.

PityTheFool · Nov 10, 2012

Hands of Iron said: ↑

Well, at least you know it's impartial. I go to bat for both of them depending on the topic or detractions being made. SRL did fight Duran's fight, and it was the woefully wrong course to take. The sticking point is that it was the fight he had fully intended to take part in beforehand. Stonehands wrote a few paragraphs on this fight in his Gods of War Duran feature:

Durans strategy was drilled into him. He was instructed to be elusive against the jab, close the distance, crowd Leonard, and hammer the body. Leonards aggressive strategy was not expected. It made things more not less difficult to cope with for precisely the reasons that Dundee had alluded to good little guys dont beat good big guys. In this fight, Durans not the puncher, he added, my guy is. Their respective knockout percentages over their previous five fights confirmed this: Durans was 40%, Leonards was 100%. Leonard stated that he planned on standing and fighting more than expected. They all think Im going to run. Im not, he said to New York Magazine, Im not changing my style at all hell be beaten to the punchthose are the facts, he continued, Whats going to beat Roberto Duran is Sugar Ray Leonard.

Dundee substantiated this in his autobiography. Leonards strategy became certain from the moment that he watched the films and deconstructed Durans style. Duran, he said, was a heel-to-toe guy. He takes two steps to get to you. So the idea was not to give him those two steps, not to move too far away because the more distance you gave him, the more effective he was. What you cant do in the face of Durans aggression was run from it, because then he picks up momentum. My guy wasnt going to run from him.

So there you have it.

Leonards strategy in Montreal was deliberate, and sound. After the fight, Dundee and Leonard revised history and a willing press has gone along with it ever since. Weve been spoon-fed a fable that has long since crystallized into orthodox boxing lore. It is the archetypal image of the Latin bully who tricked the All-American Hero into an alley fight, and it sprang from the idea that Leonard did not fight his fight because Duran challenged his masculinity. The problem is that it is at complete odds with statements made by Leonard and Dundee about Leonards clear physical advantages and the strategy that would be formed around those advantages. It contradicts Dundees earlier statements about Durans high level of skill and it contradicts statements that both had made immediately after the bout before they had time to think about posterity: Youve got to give credit to Duran, Dundee told journalists, he makes you fight his fight. When asked why he fought Durans fight, Leonard said he had no alternative.

Since then, Leonards loss to Duran has been cleverly spun, re-packaged, and sold at a reduced price. Its time to find our receipt and exchange a fable for the facts. And the facts begin with this: when both fighters were at their best, Duran was better.
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Boxing myth #2190 Sugar Ray fought Durans fight in Montreal

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Boxing myth #2190 Sugar Ray fought Durans fight in Montreal

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