did angelo dundee know how to box????

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I boxed for Angie's 5th St. Amateur team in the mid '50s, 'n I'd had countless great trainers since the early '40s at Stillman's in N.Y., 'n Ang was terrific. He was terrific because he knew instinctively how to get the best from each fighter. He didn't do it by the numbers and cheer lead.

We'da followed him barefoot over broken glass.

We not only wanted to win but we wanted to win for him. The trips back to Miami after a team win are still euphoric memories. Our team was tight.

Not only was he able to look after Cassius Clay, Pastrano and all the first-rate talent coming from Cuba, he was hands on with his amateur team (knew all our names) pointing out everything we needed to fix 'n how to do it.

He was like a great jockey that knew how ta guide us down the home stretch, with just a touch on the shoulder or a look in the eye, like Whitey Bimstein or Freddie Brown.

He didn't grandstand elaborate instructions between rounds for TV or gym rats to analyze. Sure, he exhorted a fighter, but his real instruction might have been a touch on the right shoulder, meaning it was finally time to throw the lead right to the body.

When it worked, and the man caved, It was like hitting LOTTO.

So for me Angie was a terrific trainer, not a cheerleader or a towel carrier left to have his between rounds advice second guessed by websters who wanna hear it communicated the way they wanna hear it.
-John Garfield

Sounds like he was pretty hands on to me.

Almost nobody "produces" the fighters they take to the top nowadays. I didn't turn pro with the guys who raised me in the beginning. Somebody else taught Manny Pacquiao to box. Floyd spent NO time with his uncle until his father went to prison. They all got better, and won titles under other guys.

Hell, I'm glad I separated from my amateur team. They took me as far as they could. Pro trainers took me further.

 

I remember some time in the sixties on TV watching Terry Downes fighting Willie Pastrano in London for the Light Heavyweight Title.
Downes was mauling Pastrano who was very lack lustre and after 10 rounds was clearly losing the fight.
Between the 10th and 11th round Dundee who was always a pretty laid back guy literally tore several strips of Pastrano, he shouted and swore and told Pastrano to get his act together or he was history.
The next round a fired up and motivated Pastrano found another gear went out and knocked Downes out.
A great motivator he certainly was!

 

The OP defeats his own argument just by posting that video, where Angie shows specific tips on boxing form (as if JG's firsthand account shouldn't be enough to quell all doubts). He instructs on how to avoid squaring up, how to throw a left hook off the jab, analyzes his fighter's taped bout and highlights a step and straight right as a solution for a leaping left hook from the opponent, talks about how to avoid over-extending a left hook, etc. Maybe you should actually take the time to watch your supposed evidence before blindly attempting to advance an agenda.

 

"You're blowin' it son!"

 

A comeback might be impossible here...

 

LaBonza!!!

 

Yeah, Dundee should have said a load of "detailed", "technical" stuff just to get your stamp of approval.

Maybe he should have employed someone like you to write a little script for him.

yeah, and ... maybe they needed to throw more shots ?

 

I read where Dundee was urging Pastrano on, without too much sucess...trying to motivate him. Wille sat on his stool and told Angie "**** you". Dundee went ballistic.."**** me????? No you *******...(pointing to Downes in the opposite corner) **** HIM man, **** HIM!!" Willlie found it in him to ko Downes shortly afterwards in the 10th. Yes, he was a great motivator, more so than a strategist IMO..

 

A small but interesting sidenote he also wrote alot of Ali's 'poetry'... Man of many talents.

 

Trainers of professionals rarely teach their athletes how to do the sport -- pro Euro soccer coaches aren't teaching kids how to kick balls, pro baseball coaches are coaching players who already know how to pitch or hit, Bill Belichick didn't teach Tom Brady how to throw a football or the linemen how to block.

I believe the record speaks for itself -- why did all these great fighters seek out Dundee and keep him around? Why did guys like Pinklon Thomas and others who were on the cusp of being champions bring him in for big fights and pay him?

Figure they must like throwing money away for someone that you seem to think wasn't qualified to carry the bucket to the ring.

Does it occur to you that all those boxers and trainers who have said for decades upon decades that boxing is NINETY PERCENT MENTAL and 10 percent physical might be right? And that Dundee understands the MENTAL part of the game? He seemed to excel in strategy, in getting his guy sharp and ready mentally, in saying the exact right thing at the exact right time in the corner.

You seem to equate "best trainers = best mitt workers." I respectfully disagree.

I watch these "mitt gurus" go through show-offy routines with fighters that are just that -- routines. They move the mitt toward the punch and a guy throws a 12-punch combo that he throws 100 times a day in the exact same sequence and the mitts meet his fist after the fist has moved like 4 inches -- is the opponent going to move his head into each punch in sequence?

Wonder why they don't land that 12-punch combo in fights like four or five times a round? I mean, if you're doing that in training day after day, surely it would translate that if you throw a 1-1-2-3-7-1-4-5-4-5-2-3 every day in training that you would want to go to that when you're in the ring and keep coming back to it, right? But I don't see that happening very often. In fact, pretty much never.

If there were some magic punch sequences that guaranteed success, you don't think someone would have figured that out by now and everyone would be using it?

You're getting mesmerized by slight of hand. You're getting fooled by a parlor trick. So are a lot of boxers who watch HBO and Showtime and then go to the gym and beg their coaches for more mitt time.

Boxing -- especially at the highest level -- is more of a chess match than a physical activity. For a trainer, it's a game of adjustment and readjustment and having a Plan A and Plan B and Plan C for every fight: and communicating that to a fighter during camp so he can execute it. It's things like matching a fighter on the way up with different styles against lesser opponents so he gets live experience upon which to draw when he fights a top-tier guy with a similar style. It's knowing which guy to pat on the back and which to kick in the ass, and when to do it. It's getting him to stay engaged mentally when things aren't going his way so he's still in it when there's an opportunity to turn the tide -- and preparing him that the other guy is going to have success and isn't there to cooperate.

Look at some of the commonalities of Dundee fighters, the ones he worked with over time rather than on a fight-to-fight basis in particular: footwork (Ali, Leonard, Pastrano, Napoles), superior tacticianship/generalship, all had fantastic jabs and knew how to use them (and if you pay attention, all knew how to throw them multiple ways -- and when to throw it each way), Leonard and Ali in particular knew how to get in an opponent's head and win the fight before the fight. That's to name a few.

Now it's a damned odd coincidence that all these Dundee fighters had these similar qualities ... but you're saying they learned nothing from him.

And there are guys who far exceeded their ability, like Jimmy Ellis (a journeyman middleweight who becomes a heavyweight champion, albeit not an ATG or even undisputed, but who did get to the upper echelon of the division with Dundee) and Ralph Dupas. You believe they didn't benefit from Dundee?

I agree he'll never be admitted into the mitt-workers hall of fame. But to question his ability as a trainer makes me question what you know about boxing.

 

This is a gem of a post.

 

Dundee was the best trainer in terms of being a pyschologist and motivator.He was the perfect coach for finished , naturally gifted athletes like Nunn, Ali, Leonard.A good strategist also.

However, from a technial viewpoint, that is an entirely different story.The only way to teach proper technique is by holding pads. That was not Dundee's game.

 

I've never boxed, just sparred as a kid so my technical knowledge compared to many on here is negligible.
However can people educate me as to why work with the pads is so highly regarded? I'm not aware that Ali, Marciano, Louis and company worked them.
I can't believe that a trainers capabilities and prowess can be judged solely on his work with the pads.