How could anyone NOT consider Roy Jones Jr to be the P4P GOAT?

Hopkins was a pressure fighter before he got old. Gonzalez and Castro were too.
Jones actually had more trouble with technicians, he saw Eubank as a trickier fight than Benn and Nunn trickier than Darius

 

All good points - I think Benn's recklessness and raw power would have presented it's own problems.

Darius was very mechanical, I think his style was tailor made for Roy. However, he had a tremendous chin, conditioning and brutal power, Roy would have to turn in a near perfect performance (like he did against Toney) to steer clear of Darius and outbox him over 12 rounds

Calzaghe would have been an interesting fight, but I can't see how Joe would beat Roy?

Nunn would have been a tough fight at 168, but I think Tarver at 175 is arguably better than Nunn at 168 and past prime Roy beat a prime Tarver.

Who do you think between 1993-2003 that Roy didn't face would have given him his toughest fight?

 

yeah and remembering too that RJJ is fighting in an era where fighters have the alotted time and scheduals to fight a division or two below where they should be...

Jones would have a hard enough time with dozens of the great middleweights to say nothing of having to prove himself against L-HWs, which is actually what he is, and the cream of them met many great HWs too.

 

Yes you pretty much implied this, put the whisky glass down and scroll up

My point is he was physical fitter and quicker as a younger man, what part of the aging process do you having problems grasping? He kept himself in great condition, maybe maintained his stamina/speed into his mid 30s

He changed his tactics when he no longer had the stamina, speed or reaction, ie when he was past prime. All fighters improve their tactics as they age, they also all get older and slower. He did improve in some facets, he had allot of his package already there.

His fundamentals were all there, his technique, his feints and defensively he is very good at this stage. Was he as smart at circling and setting traps, no he wasn't but he also didn't look to box and counter, he looked to apply pressure and break down his opponent and did so during his unification phase of his career

By your rationale of fighters being at their best when they have their best wins is flawed. Do you consider Calzaghe to be at his prime in the twilight of his career when he fought his biggest fights? Or did he just not get the big fights until then?

I could easily make a list of about 30-40 middleweights who could rate over him depending on criteria. He's overrated by doing well against an ATG 17lbs smaller than him and his defeats not been widely reported or analysed. To put it in perspective Maxim also beat Robinson when having 17lbs on him

Because Jones was the best of his era and Lamotta wasn't close to the best of his era? Generally Classic forum overrated pre-80s fighters, more so pre-60s (none HW) fighters

Or, the era is overrated and everyone is given plus points for fighting 1 another and losing to one another? I mean it's a great era, as are the 80s and early 90s at MW, but the 80s and 90s didn't get to showcase their abilities against as many opponents because the fights schedule wasn't as busy

You're comparing Lamotta losing to fighters and exposing his limitations with Jones not facing opponents? That's the same thing

What it shows when narrowly winning a series against this level of opposition is that you're not much better than that level of opposition.

If Lamotta was a football team, he'd be a mid-table team in his own era based on his wins and losses results

And you're now stooping to claiming Jones fought 'cab drivers' and saying Lamotta fought the best of his era while Jones didn't? Jones did fight some of the best of his era (2 P4P number 1s) and something like 17 champions. He didn't fight all of the best though. But remind me how Lamotta's fights with Charles, Moore, Burley, Zale, Turpin. I mean he fought everyone in his era didn't he? Yet again you make different rules for different fighters

As for cab drivers, Lamotta in his poverty stricken era likely fought many more semi-pros than the couple Jones fought, not that it matters

And wait did you just say Zivic and Basora would beat all of Jones 160-168 opposition or just SRR and Marshall? The latter 2 have a chance

I think you need the concept of 'resume' explaining to you. When you have losses on your resume as a boxer, it's akin to an interview candidate having jobs he's been sacked in and **** at on his resume. IE a minus not a plus.

Again, if Lamotta was a football team, he'd be a mid-table team in his own era based on his wins and losses results

It's nothing to do with Jones, it's to do with Lamotta and most pre-80s fighters not being put under the microscope, that was my initial point. It sounds from some quotes that Lamotta couldn't get off and at times was easily outboxed

I believe I actually quoted his quotes, that aside I have no problem with the man despite our proposed intercontinental sparring session falling through

Yes Lamotta 'beat' the light middleweight Green Lytell, just like Bradley 'beat' Pacquaio, except both are pretty controversial

Anyway are you claiming Lamotta was injured or not? If not what was the list of injuries about anyway? What was the 'boxed second time in a week' about?

I'm obviously taking the ****. But as you discount wins due to injury and hard schedules I assumed you'd discount these wins? I mean surely only having 1 arm makes you less of yourself than being dehydrated/drained before rehydrating and putting 17lbs back on?

 

Most boxers use steam rooms and diuretics. I think you've read more on this situation than myself, but allot of boxers regularly cut down 20-30lbs, it will make them feel like **** and weaken them but they get a size advantage when they rehydrate and recarb

But how can it be a good performance if Toney was 'that drained'? I don't think you can take those 2 positions at the same time.

Either way, 1 of 2 things he didn't train and diet as hard as the Prince Williams fight or he was in the same condition as that fight.

Facts are part of perspective, Toney always cut a ton of weight, lots of fighters drain/cut water and use saunas

Because that's what they weighed in the ring after putting the water back on? Either on same day weighins fighters would put over 5lbs back on

Like he was vulnerable to Curry, Bomber Graham, Watson and Jackson's speed? Robinson's mobility is good but his defense isn't great, it's a weakness. McCallum has the best offensive package he would have ever have faced I think, the best defence and smartest too probably

McCallum knocks a 144lb Robinson out most likely, a great fighter than not just Lamotta and Toney but Hagler and Monzon too in my view

He's allot smaller than Hopkins too

Indeed, remind me how many top fighters Lamotta beat who were bigger than him again.

As you probably know the first Mercado fight was a pretty dominating display by Hopkins

And just because they were top contenders of the era, doesn't necessarily make them 'superb', how much have you seen of them to make that judgement?

It's following your chain of logic, or your just illogical and don't follow your own criteria. You're only considering a fighters ability to be what he's accomplished to date, yes or no? That is your stance with Jones-Hopkins, so it only follows that would be your stance on other fighters factoring their losses around the period with their wins?

I thought the only champion he faced prior to Robinson was Ike Williams? Hopkins fought fringe contenders aswell as journeymen. Either way experience against top opposition isn't always necessary to develop ability or skillset, as we've seen many times when a young inexperienced fighter beats an established great. Your position seems to be experience trumps all

 

So far my scorecard is dead even between McGrain and Power Puncher....

and outside of the snide and/or demeaning banter, have found it particularly enjoyable and enlightening. Thanks

 

Lilles is probably a fight he doesn't get accused of ducking but probably the fighter who had the best shot to pull out the win when Jones was prime. I'm also not saying Lilles is the best around or that he'd win, just he maybe has the best style to do so as good outfighting 6'2 rangy powerful southpaw with fast straight punches. He's pretty hard to hit from the outside too, it's essentially similar to the Harding and Tarver dynamic

Either Lilles or McLellan with his straight fast sharp punches. McClellan I'm not that sold on though, his defence and infighting and stamina aren't great. As an outboxer though he takes away some of Jones advantages. I'm not sure how good he'd be against as quick a boxer as RJJ either.

Prime Nunn, pre-Toney at 160 is an interesting contest for Jones, after this he was a faded force even at 168, although it's still a tricky style. Lilles is probably a trickier fight for Jones. Jones would get hit more than normal in those fights, but I think he breaks them both down, like the Harding/Reggie Johnson fights

Prime Kalambay and Prime McCallum would be very tricky propositions for Jones, but these fighters were past their best by that stage

Benn's recklessness probably sees him get knocked out. He has a small punchers chance, technical punchers like McLellan and Lilles stood a much better chance and Lilles.

I think Jones can knock Darius out, or keep inviting him in to counter. Jones later on coasted more and I think this is to compensate for a drop off in his stamina in my opinion. I think Calzaghe has a better chance than Darius because he was simply better

Calzaghe would offer allot of counter opportunities for Jones, his chance against Jones is his superior workrate if he survives the early rounds and keeping Jones off balance, I don't think he does though

 

Agree somewhat although his competition is underrated and others probably didn't fancy fighting him for anything less than a king's randsom, would you?

He hasn't really fought any ATG puncher. Sosa was a massive puncher but not the best of boxers. He took allot of punishment in the Tarver 1 fight though and Tarver looks like a beastly puncher against Harding. Jones had to show allot of grit against Tarver and he needed a plan B against Griffin 1 and Harding

Benn isn't really an ATG puncher btw, he's overrated in this aspect

Hopkins, Gonzalez, not all elite but none the less

Hopkins? Toney? Virgil Hill?[/QUOTE]

 

Serious? If McGrain doesn't win a UD, he's been on the wrong side of one of the worst decisions in modern history.

 

international boxing digest all-time rankings list in 1997.

This content is protected

 

Wow that is cool anyway you could post the whole thing...perhaps a thread for a debate or even just a pm or e-mail of the comple rankings???

 

yes, here are the full rankings from that issue. they are on the boxrec encyclopaedia website under the boxing illustrated page. also you can find the page i posted on jones' encyclopaedia page.

here's the full rankings:
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/File:Sc00064da5.jpg
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/File:Sc00128b5d.jpg

if you click on the pic, it zooms in to make it easier to read. enjoy!

 

Max Baer is ranked over Lewis....
Stopped reading.

 

Foster-Quarry? Savagery.