Larry Holmes vs Joe Fraizer

Holmes Sweet Holmes squeaks by Frazier in a hard fought 15 rounder... Holmes had better speed, jab and boxing ability as well as good right hand power to give Joe Frazier fits, etc...

MR.BILL:hat

 

As much as it pains me to say, I think Holmes can do it. He wins a close-ish decision in a hard fight.

That is if he doesn't have a defensive lapse mid-late rounds ala Shavers or Snipes. If he does, he's in with a hell of a conditioned and determined finisher. Then, he loses most likely.

 

Joe wins coming on in later rounds to get the nod, out side shot at TKO, look how much trouble a older Norton gave a young Holmes.

 

I agree w/ the Frazier pick, but not sure I understand the logic here??? Look how much trouble Bonavena gave Frazier...not sure what either has to do with the outcome of this fight?

 

Don't do this to me, Nips.

Ali was more durable than Holmes, being the very top most durable champ in HW history, I'd say, but Holmes was as gritty as they come, in my opinion. No heavyweight champ in history had "a hell of a lot more" grit and toughness, that I can see. He put on that classic with Norton while injured, got up from one of the hardest bombing KD's in heavyweight title fight history that I've seen to win and score a knockout himself, always looking to fight through it, even if his legs were spaghetti. It's why only a prime Tyson took out a past it Holmes. He was enormously gritty and tough. One of the best in that regard, as well as a lot of others.

 

That was in the early 70s. Frazier used to use Holmes as a sparring partner for the Ali fights. Holmes had just turned pro at the time.

 

No they talked about it wish i could find it now it was later on i'm sure about it

 

It was at the very latest 1975. Holmes stopped being a sparring partner for Ali and anyone else in 1975 to get on with his career because he saw that he was getting to be too good to be working primarily as a sparring partner.

Holmes talks about sparring Joe Frazier at 1:05. He states it was in 1973.

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That's not what i heard him say before, but either way Frazier broke his rib and he would of been better from 71

 

If Frazier had the determination he had for the FOTC then he would beat Holmes

 

I recall one of the American boxing mags having a match up between the 1979 Holmes and,bizzarely,a 1972 Frazier ! Holmes took a close one on the the cards after fifteen. Going by the these two versions,that's about right. The 1972 Frazier was just over Joe's prime,though. Taking the '79 Holmes v the 1969-71 incarnation of Frazier,I give a slim yet convincing victory to Smokin' Joe. Holmes builds up a narrow lead early on,but by the end of fifteen,Frazier overtakes. Posssibly decking Holmes once or twice along the way.

 

When did you think they sparred? I've only ever heard of them sparring in 1973. I know Larry was Ali's head sparring partner for the first half of the 1970s, he also sparred guys such as Jimmy Young and Earnie Shavers in the early 1970s. He stopped being a sparring partner for anyone in 1975 so he could advance his career.

It was also Holmes just as he was turing pro. Holmes was only Joe's sparring partner for a short time, he Ali's top sparring partner from 1971-1975.

The sparring between Holmes and Frazier shows very little of how a prime vs prime fight would go seeing how it was when Joe was at the top and Holmes had just turned pro that year.

 

Most people feel the stylistic advantage here goes to Larry, however this is not the case. Larry spent most of his career fighting the new breed of heavyweights. Big, strong men that also offered a bigger target. Larry fought very few small fighters, so I have a feeling he's gonna get a big wake up call when he has trouble to find the target. If you watch Holmes when the jab isn't landed frequently, he uses the right hand a lot less.

Frazier is one of the greatest at fighting boxers and movers. He doesn't allow you to settle, makes you rush your punches. Holmes would spend at least 3/4s of the bout fighting to get Joe off. Holmes doesn't have the power to take Holmes out so the pressure will be relentless, like it always was with Joe. The use of Norton to strengthen the argument for Frazier is completely acceptable.

Norton brought great pressure on to Holmes despite being past his best. A prime Joe Frazier in comparison was one of the greatest heavyweights at applying pressure on his opponent.

The incredible work rate of Joe allows him to take away Holmes' jab and straight right by getting it on the inside. I hear everyone talk about Holmes right uppercut. Yes this was a great weapon of his, probably second behind his 1-2, however take into account that this leaves him wide open for the left hook. Frazier's left hook Vs Holmes' right uppercut? There's only one Winner here.

Holmes may be able to get away with boxing a prime Frazier for 3 or 4 rounds, but before you know it, that incredible work rate and relentless attack on Larry's head and body is going to take it's toll. The mid rounds would be close, however this would be where Holmes excerpts most of his energy trying to keep Frazier on him, taking big blows to the body and by the 10th/11th all Larry would be able to do is fight in small bursts, while he's constantly pounded on by Frazier as Joe sweeps the last 5 or so rounds.

10-5 UD for Frazier and I wouldn't rule out the chance of Joe stopping him. Smokin Joe is one of the worst matches stylistically for Larry out of any boxer that fought in the heavyweight division :smoke

 

I was at a post fight party at Harrahs in Atlantic City after the Holmes-Scott Frank fight and Joe Frazier came to the part among others....Holmes called Marvis a midget and Joe (who was wide and powerful looking) started walking strait up to Larry serious and said what did you say and Larry said "not you Joe" Not you Joe"waving his hand and backing up and that broke the tension a bit. Although Frazier was 5"11 or under he was thick and wide,solid neck, shoulders and arms.....Holmes Frazier would be a competitive fight for a bit because of the Holmes jab and Frazier had a great left but really not much of a right (another converted southpaw) Still I think his ferocious work-rate and body work get to Larry and it could be a stop and the relentless hook to the body and head cause the late 11-15 round stop

This would be the Frazier of his short prime but that Frazier (FOTC) was a truly great fighter

 

Thanks. I was leaning towards Joe but your post has cleared my thoughts.

Larry carries the first five rounds, there is little doubt.

Frazier comes on, winning, say, 4 out of the next 5, for a 6-4 lead for Larry.

This is where Frazier's stamina and body attack come most into play: Holmes's mobility will be greatly reduced and Frazier will still have the guns blazing into the 15th round. I simply don't believe Holmes can dish out any more punishment than Ali did at FOTC, which did not stop Frazier.

Holmes was completely spent after warring an older Norton for 15. Fighting Joe Frazier for 15 would call for a considerably higher level of performance, uncharted territory for Larry.

I think Holmes meets the canvas briefly late in the fight, but survives to lose by decision.

Frazier is at his best against boxers: with his relentless, swarming style, he beat the best of them all.

Holmes, at his best, outworked his opponents throwing jab after jab, assuming control of the fight and avoiding damage by keeping up a good offense. He could do this against the collection of 20 opponents--boxers, sluggers, pretenders--he bested. But, for all his greatness, he simply never met anyone like Joe Frazier.