Greatest Middleweight once and for all- Greb? Monzon? Hagler?

Fleischer wrote "50 years at ringside" in 1958 and I have an original although beat up copy. Interestingly in the last chapter he rates the greatest middleweights of all time.

Ketchel
Ryan
Greb
Walker
SRR
Klaus
Papke
Darcy
M. Gibbons
Jeff Smith

Its very possible he changed his mind over the years. Based on his writings in this book he thought Ketchel, Ryan and Greb were the very top elite so possibly he did not feel either three had that much over the other.

 

It points to Greb, his number of quality opponents in various divs gives him the advantage, I honestly think that either Monzon or Hagler would trouble him too much.

 

Based on who they fought its Greb without a doubt. Hard to pick him with no footage though.

 

A lot of Nat Fleischer was based around Jack Johnson who he rated very highly even for those times, I guess the fact that Ketchel dropped Johnson and some of Ketchels wars left an impression in Nat's mind.....Greb was a tough German and his resume is incredible while Stan was cut a bit shorter although both died too young...I spoke to Nat Fleischer many times and he saw many fighters as a young man that others did not see but we all may have a bias to certain era's or era's we were told about as young men.

IMO they were both were outstanding fighters and ATG's and top 5 middleweights

 

Nat rated Johnson the best as of 50 years at ringside which would be 1958 (officially). As of his death he did not change his ratings all time in the hwt division at least. He was close friends with both Johnson and Ketchel. He stated that Ketchel gave him the most thrills of any fighter he ever saw from ringside.

 

Of all the top middleweights, the one that gets overlooked the most appears
to be MARCEL CERDAN. Also, MICKEY WALKER would give any of the ones that
appear to be the top picks a run for their money, be it GREB, KETCHEL, MONZON
or HAGLER.
If the majority pick Greb or Monzon, that does not prove that Greb or Monzon were
the best. There can be only one, and picking the top middleweight will never be
a unanimous decision.

 

people love to get fancy and throw around names but Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest middleweight ever. Just because he was a great welter does not take away from the fact he was a great middleweight. Monzon would be my second choice. No way is Hagler more than 8th or 10th best middle ever. Greb, simply too far back in time to figure how great he was.

 

And Lincoln was "too far back" to figure how great a president he was !
Look at the record books, see his amazing resume, fighting everybody, beating everyone, every size, and look at film of some of his great HOF victims he whipped in a 300 bout career. Greb didn't beat them by osmosis.
Greb beat them , [Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Slattery, Dillon,Battling Levinsky, Gunboat Smith, Kid Norfolk, Maxie Rosenbloom, Bill Brennan, Gunboat Smith etc ] BECAUSE HE WAS THAT GOOD !

 

He was also beaten by Tunney twice and Gibbons twice and Loughran once. I never questioned how great Greb was, it is just that he fought in such a different era, it is hard to figure how he would do in a more modern era.

 

But if you want to apply that standard, wasn't Robinson also beaten by Fullmer twice? Basilio once? Jake LaMotta once?

Sure, he was a great middleweight, but he also struggled GREATLY with just about every ranked middleweight he ever faced, whether great or merely good, even when he was younger and his in prime (see vs. Abrams, Mims, etc). I don't think he has the consistence at MW to rank him at number 1. Certainly nothing that would push him over Greb.

Cheers

 

Hagler
Monzon
Greb

 

All of whom were much better fighters than Willie Monroe, Bobby Watts, Bennie Briscoe, Andrea Selpa, Manuel Severino, or anyone else that Monzon and Hagler beat or got beat by.

 

LT,true ! What frustrates me is when some posters bring up the fact that Harry Greb lost a few decisions to a Gene tunney or Tommy Gibbons they
conveniently forget that these two Hall of Famers were TRUE LHs who outweighed Greb by 10 or more pounds. And Greb beat them many times also. A Monzon or a Hagler good as they were NEVER
challenged Lightheavy champions ever. They KNEW their limitations...Harry Greb because of his amazing speed and toughness was truly fearless as a fighter who accepted EVERY challenge regardless of weight, style or color,
and was held in AWE by his contemporaries...He bounced around from town to town almost weekly, never giving injuries and bruises to heal itself...And let it be noted when REQUIRED Greb till his LAST bout fought under 160 pounds...And never kod in his last 290 bouts...His like we will never see again. Cheers LT.

 

whether they challenged themselves at lhw is irrelevent since we're discussing their worth at mw.