Who doesn't rate Robinson #1?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Manassa, Dec 30, 2012.


Page 1 of 5
  1. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Pound-for-pound of course.

    Those who don't, who's number one for you instead?
     
    Manassa, Dec 30, 2012
    Manassa, Dec 30, 2012
    #1
  2. Vysotsky

    Vysotsky Boxing Junkie banned

    12,797
    11
    Oct 14, 2009
    Greb
    Armstrong
    Langford
    Leonard
    Robinson
    Fitz
    Pep
    Charles
    Duran
     
    Vysotsky, Dec 30, 2012
    Vysotsky, Dec 30, 2012
    #2
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    80,697
    21,310
    Sep 15, 2009
    I have number 1. Armstrong and Greb bring up the rear.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 30, 2012
    lufcrazy, Dec 30, 2012
    #3
  4. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    90
    Nov 10, 2008
    If Greb is real, I think surely he has to be numero uno
     
    GPater11093, Dec 30, 2012
    GPater11093, Dec 30, 2012
    #4
  5. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie banned

    8,710
    27
    Jun 1, 2012
    Robinson called Charley Burley the greatest pound for pound boxer of all time.
     
    dyna, Dec 30, 2012
    dyna, Dec 30, 2012
    #5
  6. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

    61,101
    45,365
    Feb 11, 2005
    The Rock above those cowards Robinson and Greb.
     
    Seamus, Dec 30, 2012
    Seamus, Dec 30, 2012
    #6
  7. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    1. Greb
    2. Armstrong
    3. Robinson

    They are definites.

    4. Sam Langford
    5. Benny Leonard

    You could swap those two around but I give Langford the benefit of the doubt. I think either can hold a legitimate #1 claim.

    6. Charles

    No lower than that for Charles, but no higher either. Just right.

    7. Duran
    8. Pep

    You could switch these around also. I definitely don't like anyone who leaves either of them out.

    9. Moore
    10. Gans

    Again, swapable. I like Moore because his career is unbelievable.

    I've never been big on Fitzsimmons; he rates alongside the next lot, including Ross, Walker, Louis, Ali, Canzoneri, McLarnin and so on.

    Then there's Packey McFarland, but I'm undecided.
     
    Manassa, Dec 30, 2012
    Manassa, Dec 30, 2012
    #7
  8. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    90
    Nov 10, 2008
    That is solid there pal, no disagreements from me.

    However, I find boxing to be so hard to compare say Pacquiao to Langford because of the era's and rulesets, I would use the Walker Law to be the cut off where I start rating fighters. So in your list I would take out Gans, Langford, McFarland, Fitzsimmons...

    Saying that I would say Fitzsimmons needs to be in a top 10, I just cant see how he does not fit in. I tend to rate Charles higher but I actually like your ranking there.

    Id like to hear why you rate Armstrong over SRR though?
     
    GPater11093, Dec 30, 2012
    GPater11093, Dec 30, 2012
    #8
  9. Pachilles

    Pachilles Boxing Addict Full Member

    6,294
    28
    Nov 15, 2009
    Only hipsters rate fighters above Robinson
     
    Pachilles, Dec 30, 2012
    Pachilles, Dec 30, 2012
    #9
  10. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    It is a different sport now, and somehow I try to fathom that and reason with it and juggle things around and conclude that so-and-so was 'this good' in 'his time' and he relates to history 'this much.'

    :think

    Fitzsimmons, well, perhaps he should be in the top ten; three weight champion and all that, but I hold my reservations about his opposition quality and how he performed against them, or how they may have helped along his reputation. This almost seems in contrast to the above paragraph but it's not; I'll be more honest - I dispute greatly Fitzsimmons' quality of opposition and his performances against it, and the main reason he features as high as #11 or 12 is because of those other reasons above; he was excellent for his time and accomplished a lot. Great fighter regardless of my reservations - he must have been something special.

    Armstrong over Robinson? Well, I do find Robinson slightly overrated. Don't get me wrong - he's still the go-to boxer when you want to show off the old school to anyone who's interested - but he did have his struggles. Armstrong recorded a period of dominance over a solid-to-great level of competition that I don't believe has ever been equalled nor surpassed. 59-1-1 (51) from '37 to '40 which could easily have been 61-0 - and with all those defences out of his comfort zone; like what Jose Napoles did, except imagine Napoles even smaller and making even more defences and marching head first into every single one. Armstrong had a few difficulties at welterweight but you could be more specific and claim he was by far and away the best fighter ever under 135lbs (and even top five all-time in that division as well). Starting '36 with two losses, Armstrong went 37-1 (a disqualification) with 32 knockouts, twenty seven of them consecutively, before 1938 even started. Crazy. Sectioning the best portion of his career we can come up with a run that looked like 69-2-1 (56 knockouts, I think) over some great opponents, and of course he was still beating big name fighters right up until he retired. If I were to use my take-the-**** licence I could argue that he really deserved a 72-0, but then we can't go changing official results.
     
    Manassa, Dec 30, 2012
    Manassa, Dec 30, 2012
    #10
  11. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    18,285
    399
    Jan 22, 2010
    Is that why Robinson didn't hook up with Charley Burley ?
     
    burt bienstock, Dec 30, 2012
    burt bienstock, Dec 30, 2012
    #11
  12. Vysotsky

    Vysotsky Boxing Junkie banned

    12,797
    11
    Oct 14, 2009
    Yup and that needs to count for something when he avoided the greatest fighter he could have fought (according to SRR) and rating Robinson against fearless warriors like Greb, Langford and the other P4P greats.
     
    Vysotsky, Dec 30, 2012
    Vysotsky, Dec 30, 2012
    #12
  13. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    90
    Nov 10, 2008
    That is as valid as any other reasoning. I just find that very very hard to contrast and compare, but even then its hard to contrast and compare current fighters into a definite top 10 or whatever.

    I can understand that completely, the thing with Fitzsimmons (and I will admit it is years since I have properly studied him) he pretty much dominated from Middleweight to Heavyweight until Jeffries came on the go.

    He has one absolutly completely great win in NP Jack Dempsey who was the P4P number 1 at the time, and very highly ranked. Then he moved up to Heavyweight whilst still a virtual Middleweight and beat the Heavyweight champion.

    Now, I dont rate Corbett that highly however it is a good win in a historical context IMO.

    Then you throw in his wins against the top class guys like Choynski and Maher who were also top top guys at the time, you have a pretty serious contender for an ATG top 5 IMO.

    Then you have to remember it has been claimed (I think by Janitor, although its not something I would endorse with my little knowledge) that Bob could have been for a breif period the premier Lightweight in the world!

    That is completely valid. I tend to think the ratng of SRR over Armstrong is that Ray is consensuly rated as the top Welterweight and one of the top 3 middleweights. I dont think you can have Armstrong as a top 3 in any of his 3 weight classes, except Lightweight. But on a pound for pound scale his reign at Welterweight is pretty mental IMO.

    I think the Robinson ducking Burley thing is complelty overblown at times there was never really an exact time they should have fought, I think the best chance of making the fight would have been when they were both top contenders (Ray at Welter and Charley at Middle) and fighting each other would have been great for their legacy but not making the match is something you cant hold against them IMO
     
    GPater11093, Dec 30, 2012
    GPater11093, Dec 30, 2012
    #13
  14. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie banned

    8,710
    27
    Jun 1, 2012
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4&gl=NL&hl=nl[/ame]
     
    dyna, Dec 30, 2012
    dyna, Dec 30, 2012
    #14
  15. Vysotsky

    Vysotsky Boxing Junkie banned

    12,797
    11
    Oct 14, 2009
    Lytell is another one.

    I agree but when talking about P4P ATG's we should be critique them with the utmost veracity. That same rational could be used for everyone on the list especially inside the top 5. Did Greb, Langford, Fitz, have to fight all of the guys they did, Greb having 4 and 5 fight series against bigger ATG LHW's. They went out of their way to fight anyone and everyone while for Robinson the "he was a tough negotiator" scapegoat is always used.
     
    Vysotsky, Dec 30, 2012
    Vysotsky, Dec 30, 2012
    #15
Page 1 of 5