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Who ranks Higher on your ATG List? Whitaker or Hagler?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Eat'Em Up, Dec 18, 2012.

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anj Guest

NWS said: ↑

Right.

You could very well argue Pernell Whitaker is the fourth greatest lightweight of all-time right behind the likes of Leonard, Gans, Duran. There hasn't been an Undisputed 135 champion since him over 20 years ago, and when he unified he was the first since Roberto Duran himself accomplished it in his last fight at the weight in 1978, beating the likes of Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez (x2), Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Juan Nazario.

So with that in mind, consider that he also went and captured titles at 140, 147, and 154. Both McGirt at WW and Vasquez at LMW were the #1 rated fighters in those divisions respectively - McGirt was also the Lineal Champ and amongst the top four P4P in the sport at the time (See his work against Simon Brown to get a good grasp on the quality of fighter he was, or just watch the first bout with Whitaker himself). Vasquez was a significantly bigger man and well established in the division with ten defenses of his strap and wins over an undefeated Winky Wright, Aaron Davis, Javier Castillejo among others. The win over a fading, but still P4P #1 Chavez is easily one of the greatest of the last 25-30 years and in arguably the most significant fight of the decade. Was Chavez at his best at Welterweight? Obviously not, but it wasn't exactly a full fledged 147 bout either (Whitaker 145, Chavez 142). JCC had fought above Light Welter 11 times prior to then going 11-0 (11 KOs). Then consider that a past-prime Whitaker after having shown serious decline against Rivera and Hurtado gave De La Hoya all the could handle despite no longer being able to sustain his offensive arsenal and work rate.

Chavez
De La Hoya (arguably)
Nelson
McGirt (x2)
Vasquez
Ramirez (x2)

Outside of Thomas Hearns obviously, which are Hagler's best victories? He has one of the most wildly undefined CV's regarding his Top 5-6 wins as any ATG I've seen. You pose this question to a group of fans and the answers are wildly inconsistent and really all over the map. I'm not so sure that's a great thing. After all, his case thus far in the thread has been that he dominated the MW division and was more exciting to watch.

Also, if you want to see dominance of a different variety, Whitaker's performances against Nelson, Ramirez II, Haugen, Chavez, Nazario (actually a very short night) all fit the bill. You want to see him go toe-to-toe often, the second McGirt fight offers that and could really be placed in the aforementioned group. See him knocked around and need a KO to win, Hurtado. Or if you doubt his 'toughness', watch a shot incarnation go the distance with prime Tito Trinidad after having broken his jaw in the sixth round.

Hagler lost to a one-eyed, coked out natural welterweight and got taken the distance by a fat ass, past his prime lightweight. :rofl So it's really fitting that you could talk about how a bunch of natural welters and sub-welters would do against him. He wanted no part of Michael Spinks either. :shock:
Click to expand...

Great, great post!

anj, Jan 8, 2013

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dyna Boxing Junkie banned

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NWS said: ↑

Right.

You could very well argue Pernell Whitaker is the fourth greatest lightweight of all-time right behind the likes of Leonard, Gans, Duran. There hasn't been an Undisputed 135 champion since him over 20 years ago, and when he unified he was the first since Roberto Duran himself accomplished it in his last fight at the weight in 1978, beating the likes of Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez (x2), Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Juan Nazario.

So with that in mind, consider that he also went and captured titles at 140, 147, and 154. Both McGirt at WW and Vasquez at LMW were the #1 rated fighters in those divisions respectively - McGirt was also the Lineal Champ and amongst the top four P4P in the sport at the time (See his work against Simon Brown to get a good grasp on the quality of fighter he was, or just watch the first bout with Whitaker himself). Vasquez was a significantly bigger man and well established in the division with ten defenses of his strap and wins over an undefeated Winky Wright, Aaron Davis, Javier Castillejo among others. The win over a fading, but still P4P #1 Chavez is easily one of the greatest of the last 25-30 years and in arguably the most significant fight of the decade. Was Chavez at his best at Welterweight? Obviously not, but it wasn't exactly a full fledged 147 bout either (Whitaker 145, Chavez 142). JCC had fought above Light Welter 11 times prior to then going 11-0 (11 KOs). Then consider that a past-prime Whitaker after having shown serious decline against Rivera and Hurtado gave De La Hoya all the could handle despite no longer being able to sustain his offensive arsenal and work rate.

Chavez
De La Hoya (arguably)
Nelson
McGirt (x2)
Vasquez
Ramirez (x2)

Outside of Thomas Hearns obviously, which are Hagler's best victories? He has one of the most wildly undefined CV's regarding his Top 5-6 wins as any ATG I've seen. You pose this question to a group of fans and the answers are wildly inconsistent and really all over the map. I'm not so sure that's a great thing. After all, his case thus far in the thread has been that he dominated the MW division and was more exciting to watch.

Also, if you want to see dominance of a different variety, Whitaker's performances against Nelson, Ramirez II, Haugen, Chavez, Nazario (actually a very short night) all fit the bill. You want to see him go toe-to-toe often, the second McGirt fight offers that and could really be placed in the aforementioned group. See him knocked around and need a KO to win, Hurtado. Or if you doubt his 'toughness', watch a shot incarnation go the distance with prime Tito Trinidad after having broken his jaw in the sixth round.

Hagler lost to a one-eyed, coked out natural welterweight and got taken the distance by a fat ass, past his prime lightweight. :rofl So it's really fitting that you could talk about how a bunch of natural welters and sub-welters would do against him. He wanted no part of Michael Spinks either. :shock:
Click to expand...

:good

dyna, Jan 8, 2013

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NWS said: ↑

Right.

You could very well argue Pernell Whitaker is the fourth greatest lightweight of all-time right behind the likes of Leonard, Gans, Duran. There hasn't been an Undisputed 135 champion since him over 20 years ago, and when he unified he was the first since Roberto Duran himself accomplished it in his last fight at the weight in 1978, beating the likes of Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez (x2), Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Juan Nazario.

So with that in mind, consider that he also went and captured titles at 140, 147, and 154. Both McGirt at WW and Vasquez at LMW were the #1 rated fighters in those divisions respectively - McGirt was also the Lineal Champ and amongst the top four P4P in the sport at the time (See his work against Simon Brown to get a good grasp on the quality of fighter he was, or just watch the first bout with Whitaker himself). Vasquez was a significantly bigger man and well established in the division with ten defenses of his strap and wins over an undefeated Winky Wright, Aaron Davis, Javier Castillejo among others. The win over a fading, but still P4P #1 Chavez is easily one of the greatest of the last 25-30 years and in arguably the most significant fight of the decade. Was Chavez at his best at Welterweight? Obviously not, but it wasn't exactly a full fledged 147 bout either (Whitaker 145, Chavez 142). JCC had fought above Light Welter 11 times prior to then going 11-0 (11 KOs). Then consider that a past-prime Whitaker after having shown serious decline against Rivera and Hurtado gave De La Hoya all the could handle despite no longer being able to sustain his offensive arsenal and work rate.

Chavez
De La Hoya (arguably)
Nelson
McGirt (x2)
Vasquez
Ramirez (x2)

Outside of Thomas Hearns obviously, which are Hagler's best victories? He has one of the most wildly undefined CV's regarding his Top 5-6 wins as any ATG I've seen. You pose this question to a group of fans and the answers are wildly inconsistent and really all over the map. I'm not so sure that's a great thing. After all, his case thus far in the thread has been that he dominated the MW division and was more exciting to watch.

Also, if you want to see dominance of a different variety, Whitaker's performances against Nelson, Ramirez II, Haugen, Chavez, Nazario (actually a very short night) all fit the bill. You want to see him go toe-to-toe often, the second McGirt fight offers that and could really be placed in the aforementioned group. See him knocked around and need a KO to win, Hurtado. Or if you doubt his 'toughness', watch a shot incarnation go the distance with prime Tito Trinidad after having broken his jaw in the sixth round.

Hagler lost to a one-eyed, coked out natural welterweight and got taken the distance by a fat ass, past his prime lightweight. :rofl So it's really fitting that you could talk about how a bunch of natural welters and sub-welters would do against him. He wanted no part of Michael Spinks either. :shock:
Click to expand...

:happy arty
:hammertime arty

turbotime, Jan 8, 2013

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NWS said: ↑

Right.

You could very well argue Pernell Whitaker is the fourth greatest lightweight of all-time right behind the likes of Leonard, Gans, Duran. There hasn't been an Undisputed 135 champion since him over 20 years ago, and when he unified he was the first since Roberto Duran himself accomplished it in his last fight at the weight in 1978, beating the likes of Azumah Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez (x2), Greg Haugen, Roger Mayweather, Juan Nazario.

So with that in mind, consider that he also went and captured titles at 140, 147, and 154. Both McGirt at WW and Vasquez at LMW were the #1 rated fighters in those divisions respectively - McGirt was also the Lineal Champ and amongst the top four P4P in the sport at the time (See his work against Simon Brown to get a good grasp on the quality of fighter he was, or just watch the first bout with Whitaker himself). Vasquez was a significantly bigger man and well established in the division with ten defenses of his strap and wins over an undefeated Winky Wright, Aaron Davis, Javier Castillejo among others. The win over a fading, but still P4P #1 Chavez is easily one of the greatest of the last 25-30 years and in arguably the most significant fight of the decade. Was Chavez at his best at Welterweight? Obviously not, but it wasn't exactly a full fledged 147 bout either (Whitaker 145, Chavez 142). JCC had fought above Light Welter 11 times prior to then going 11-0 (11 KOs). Then consider that a past-prime Whitaker after having shown serious decline against Rivera and Hurtado gave De La Hoya all the could handle despite no longer being able to sustain his offensive arsenal and work rate.

Chavez
De La Hoya (arguably)
Nelson
McGirt (x2)
Vasquez
Ramirez (x2)

Outside of Thomas Hearns obviously, which are Hagler's best victories? He has one of the most wildly undefined CV's regarding his Top 5-6 wins as any ATG I've seen. You pose this question to a group of fans and the answers are wildly inconsistent and really all over the map. I'm not so sure that's a great thing. After all, his case thus far in the thread has been that he dominated the MW division and was more exciting to watch.

Also, if you want to see dominance of a different variety, Whitaker's performances against Nelson, Ramirez II, Haugen, Chavez, Nazario (actually a very short night) all fit the bill. You want to see him go toe-to-toe often, the second McGirt fight offers that and could really be placed in the aforementioned group. See him knocked around and need a KO to win, Hurtado. Or if you doubt his 'toughness', watch a shot incarnation go the distance with prime Tito Trinidad after having broken his jaw in the sixth round.

Hagler lost to a one-eyed, coked out natural welterweight and got taken the distance by a fat ass, past his prime lightweight. :rofl So it's really fitting that you could talk about how a bunch of natural welters and sub-welters would do against him. He wanted no part of Michael Spinks either. :shock:
Click to expand...

Great Post, I think MMH is the GOAT @ MW (He beat SRL BTW and there was more money and glory so a move up to LHW (15lbs higher . . . no shitty SMW division back then) to fight Spinx did not make sense.

That being said, I rank Pernell in or around the top 10 ATG and Haglar top 20-25

JASPER, Jan 8, 2013

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orriray59 said: ↑

You can't declare that he won the Leonard bout, could've gone either way.
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I was a huge SRL fan at the time, went to go see the fight with my dad (who was a MMH fan) for 20 years we debated who won that fight . . . I never wanted to let him know that I really thought Haglar won. Leonard stole rounds with his shoe shine at the end of each round. Almost everyone that I knew who watch that fight back in the day said MMH should have won the fight in a close but clear decision

JASPER, Jan 8, 2013

#80
the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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Hagler was the more complete operator. As complete as anyone we have footage of, honestly. Could get on his toes and box with the best, slug it out with the best, march forward and press the action or sit back and counter, the finest switch-hitter the sport's ever seen and maybe the most rock-solid chin there's ever been as well. That lethal right jab, too. You watch him against Tony Sibson and you can tell right away that you're looking at an elite of the elite kind of guy.

A really, really dominant career, too. It could be argued, and rather easily, that he was only ever truly beaten just once in nearly 70 fights, and that loss avenged twice in brutal fashion. He cleaned house at 160 and then snuffed everyone else out for just shy of a decade, despite being a somewhat small Middleweight. Hearns was moving up in weight, but he was still a killer at 160 and a future Light Heavyweight champ - first guy to ever beat Virgil Hill - and Marvin just ran right through him. It's an iconic fight, of course, but I'm not so sure people realize how big a win that is - absolutely massive. Hagler had already had quite a long and accomplished career and then he goes and switches his style up to take out one of the greatest fighters ever. Brilliant stuff. Went up against and turned away quality fighters representing a wide array of styles. Guy's got a pretty stacked resume of solid contenders of that era, which was a damned good one.

Basically, you won't find too many guys who could be called more dominant than Hagler, he's got an excellent resume to fall back on that is topped off with one of the biggest wins of all time, and good luck trying to find a guy you could confidently say was clearly better than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExTEVyprqA

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the cobra, Jan 8, 2013

#81
NWS Guest

the cobra said: ↑

Hagler was the more complete operator. As complete as anyone we have footage of, honestly. Could get on his toes and box with the best, slug it out with the best, march forward and press the action or sit back and counter, the finest switch-hitter the sport's ever seen and maybe the most rock-solid chin there's ever been as well. That lethal right jab, too. You watch him against Tony Sibson and you can tell right away that you're looking at an elite of the elite kind of guy.

A really, really dominant career, too. It could be argued, and rather easily, that he was only ever truly beaten just once in nearly 70 fights, and that loss avenged twice in brutal fashion. He cleaned house at 160 and then snuffed everyone else out for just shy of a decade, despite being a somewhat small Middleweight. Hearns was moving up in weight, but he was still a killer at 160 and a future Light Heavyweight champ - first guy to ever beat Virgil Hill - and Marvin just ran right through him. It's an iconic fight, of course, but I'm not so sure people realize how big a win that is - absolutely massive. Hagler had already had quite a long and accomplished career and then he goes and switches his style up to take out one of the greatest fighters ever. Brilliant stuff. Went up against and turned away quality fighters representing a wide array of styles. Guy's got a pretty stacked resume of solid contenders of that era, which was a damned good one.

Basically, you won't find too many guys who could be called more dominant than Hagler, he's got an excellent resume to fall back on that is topped off with one of the biggest wins of all time, and good luck trying to find a guy you could confidently say was clearly better than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExTEVyprqA

This content is protected

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You never disappoint.

the cobra said:

Pea, and quite clearly.
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:nod

NWS, Jan 8, 2013

#82

NWS Guest

victor879 said: ↑

Great post and boxing history knowledge. :good
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anj said: ↑

Great, great post!
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dyna said: ↑

:good
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turbotime said: ↑

:happy arty
:hammertime arty
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JASPER said: ↑

Great Post, I think MMH is the GOAT @ MW (He beat SRL BTW and there was more money and glory so a move up to LHW (15lbs higher . . . no shitty SMW division back then) to fight Spinx did not make sense.

That being said, I rank Pernell in or around the top 10 ATG and Haglar top 20-25
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I think if you look at the two posts I quoted with the following responses and tone of them, I was equally reasonable. I never bring BULL**** to the table first, but I'll gladly respond in kind to it.

NWS, Jan 8, 2013

#83
the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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NWS said: ↑

You never disappoint.

:nod
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It should be noted that Hagler was genuinely amazing. Probably 10-15 spots between them on my ATG list, but that's clear enough.

the cobra, Jan 8, 2013

#84
NWS Guest

the cobra said: ↑

It should be noted that Hagler was genuinely amazing. Probably 10-15 spots between them on my ATG list, but that's clear enough.
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He was.

On here though, he's become the biggest pain in the ass of any ATG, by far. My 'allegiances' probably have a great deal to do with that though.

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NWS, Jan 8, 2013

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the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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NWS said: ↑

He was.

On here though, he's become the biggest pain in the ass of any ATG, by far. My 'allegiances' probably have a great deal to do with that though.

This content is protected

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As a die-hard Hopkins supporter since the way back, I understand where you're coming from. Hags gets the mythical treatment as much as anybody on ESB. Still, wonderful fighter.

the cobra, Jan 8, 2013

#86

NWS Guest

orriray59 said: ↑

FTR Hagler is one of my favorite boxers, ever. If not my favorite.
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Really? :huh

You sure as hell never let that impression on. I'm far too passionate over this **** to not show my hand. :-(

NWS, Jan 8, 2013

#87
NWS Guest

the cobra said: ↑

As a die-hard Hopkins supporter since the way back, I understand where you're coming from. Hags gets the mythical treatment as much as anybody on ESB. Still, wonderful fighter.
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Who's in your top five 'most mythical' on ESB? Hagler may actually get more respect than any other pre-2000s fighter in history.

NWS, Jan 8, 2013

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Chinny Well-Known Member Full Member

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Despite never seeing Sweet Pea rocking a WAR cap, I've got to go with Pernell

Chinny, Jan 8, 2013

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NWS said: ↑

Who's in your top five 'most mythical' on ESB? Hagler may actually get more respect than any other pre-2000s fighter in history.
Click to expand...

Hagler
Vitali
Mayweather
Hearns ?

turbotime, Jan 8, 2013

#90

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