Boxers that were world class but never made world class money

But his research doesnt show anything. He makes claims that arent substantiated. These fighters hes listing as world class werent. I dont need boxrec for that. I can easily check the ratings for Ring throughout the 1930s and 1940s, which Ive done. Not only are these men rarely, if ever mentioned (and that goes for Gilroy as well) but it should be remembered that Nat Fleischer had a policy of writing up foreign fighters who may not have been all that deserving in order to sell magazines in those countries.

He says Gilroy was world class and favored to beat this guy and that guy. If thats so then why isnt he being mentioned and rated regularly? In 1938 and 1939 when he supposedly cracks the ratings I can find two mentions of him in Ring. They are both one sentence fight reports from Great Britain and give no indication of his class or any high esteem in which he is held.

Ring had a regular article titled: With the British Boxers in the 1930s. I havent found one mention of Gilroy or these supposedly world class opponents despite the article regularly discussing the headliners and up and comers of Great Britain.

Jock McAvoy, Freddie Mills, Len Harvey all get mentioned but strange that Bert Gilroy isnt. Well, not really considering every time he stepped up he lost. Its true that Boxrec doesnt tell the whole story but when your best runs are against losing opponents, and you cant string together significant wins when you step up at some point the excuses start sounding like just that.

 

I have a correction to make to my Arthur Ginger Sadd record.He WAS rated no 10 in the Ring as a middleweight in 1938.

Sadd lost to Gilroy in 1940, he had lost his last three fights previous to that. Sadd again lost to Gilroy in 1942, he had won just one of his last five contests. So Sadd was not world rated when Gilroy beat him.
Sadd also only won one of his next seven fights.

Sadd's most noteworthy win is adec over a 20 years old middleweight Freddie Mills, but MIlls avenged this 10 months later and went on to stop Sadd a year later. Like Gilroy ,Sadd appears to have floundered when he went up in class .

 

Well, if you've looked at every RING magazine from the relevant period, I would say that is some decent research, and if Gilroy is never put among the "world class", then yours and thistle1's version is at odds, since he did say RING magazine was one of his sources.

:good

Without knowing the full details of his and your research, and the precise sources, I can't comment further on that.

I'm open-minded on it.

I can't contest the fact that Gilroy beat Arthur "Ginger" Sadd, a good fighter who had given McAvoy a good fight, in an eliminator for the British title, held by McAvoy. And was never given a shot at that title.

 

Well, if you are using Saad as a measuring stick Dick Turpin deserved the shot at McAvoy first BUT, and far more to the shame of British boxing, the color line was still in effect at the national level and he wouldnt get a shot for eight years when he broke the color barrier.

McAvoy didnt even defend the title after his fight with Saad and had basically moved up to the light heavyweight division where he was past his prime. Thats hardly ducking anyone. When you take that into account with the fact that the war was on making promotions and matchmaking problematic at best you dont really have an argument that Gilroy was this feared, avoided contender.

With that being said the elimination between Gilroy and Saad was hardly a world class fight. Saad hadnt won his last four fights and was no longer anywhere near the top ten in the world, a standing he only briefly held.

If you want to a boxrec warrior go look at Gilroy's opposition at this time and outside of Saad tell me how many names you recognize and how great their records are to show that Gilroy was so feared. Fighters today come out of Kentucky, Alabama, Tennessee, and the like with long strings of wins against no-name opposition and you would laugh if they claimed to be feared world class contenders. This is no different.

 

James Morton, in his book " Fighters," claims the reason Gilroy and McAvoy never met is because, "Gilroy suffered a serious back injury which put him in a military hospital.For a time it was thought he would never box again".
If this is correct, you can hardly blame McAvoy for not defending against Gilroy.

 

Unforgotten, I have and he's there and just out side the Top 10, and even the With British Boxers spots, Bert's there alright and it's states; " Bert Gilroy would not be averse in fighting Fred Apostili, Solly Kreiger and Ceferino Garcia..."

these two haven't got a clue, with respect to Ginger Sadd, his opponents or others 'listed' and mentioned. Dick Turpin was rated lower than Gilroy, both in the UK and in World Classification...

McAvoy was fighting and ranked as a L-HW in the mid-late 30s, infact he was one of the few fighters who would be ranked in both divisions for a spell. His TITLE was of course still an issue, it was never contested after Sadd, with Gilroy the leading contender from 39-45, but No title fight, even accounting for the War, Gilroy get's no title fight but, Roderick, Mills and Hawkins do (???).

and their first and most serious mistake was THINKING Now, and Comparing it to Then... miles & miles of difference of competition from then to now, different scheduals, weight divisions and fighters fighting up and such.

by they still insist I haven't given any sources and they give NO credit to Gilroy from those sources. I have cited ALL sources the statements ARE THERE in those sources, but because they know most people don't have them on hand they try their luck.

I cant post pics anymore but if you check out pictures of Gilroy's Scrapbook on his thread over at the CBZ, you'll get a very good idea of just how detailed his Scrapbook is, with 72 pages and ALL the sources you can imagine including the RATINGS - British & World's. look and see.

anyway, you can't win with these types. I say something = I made it up...

I provide a sources, it means nothing. Ring, BN, Top Reporters, commentaries, quotes from other fighters and the rest... :deal

 

I agree with the underlined bit.

 

No prizes for guessing who wrote the flattering blurb accompanying the CBZ piece on Gilroy.

Bottom line the best fighter Gilroy faced was Marcel Cerdan, Cerdan despite conceding 11 .25lbs , floored Gilroy 5 times for long counts before kaying him in the 4th round.
Every positive /flattering piece I have seen about Gilroy has been written by Thistle his grandson.

Why is it there are no such articles by other hands?:huh

Very strange that.:think

Gilroy was the leading contender from 39/45? What even when he was in a military hospital with a broken pelvis?

Still the leading contender in 1943 , even though he was beaten by both Berry and McLeave?

The leading contender in 1944, though he was stopped by MIlls ,and outpointed by McLeave?

The leading contender in 1945 even though he was beaten by Berry again, and Vince Hawkins?

If this is true it seems to me that he got more than his fair crack of the whip.

BTW . In 43 two of Gilroy's opponents Hyams and Moody,were vetoed by the BBBOC as prospective opponents for Mills ,as they were deemed as not being of sufficient quality to give him a decent contest. Hyams had been stopped by Mills in 1942 and won a very controversial dsq over him that same year. Hyams drew with Gilroy in 1943 in his next to last fight, the year Hyams was considered as not a suitable opponent for Mills.

 

No way is Cerdan a top 10 ATG IMO.

 

What fighters did Roy Witts handle?

 

I am not averse to fighting Wladimir Klitchko, doesnt mean he is ducking me, or that I am a top contender.

Dick Turpin may have been rated lower than Gilroy but what does that say about Gilroy's elimination bout when Turpin beat Saad first?

Did anyone get a title fight with McAvoy for the middleweight title over Gilroy? No. So quit acting like he was ducked. If he was ducked then so was every other British middleweight title contender, not just your grandpappy. Your grandpappys elimination bout was for the middleweight title which McAvoy never defended after Gilroy won his elimination bout, not the light heavyweight title, so no, your argument is full of holes. Besides, McAvoy wasnt the light heavyweight champion when your grandpappy won his elimination, Harvey was and he didnt defend his title for three years due at least in part to the war.

You keep arguing around in circles. You complain that Roderick and Mills get title shots but ignore the fact that those shots came much later than the period you are referring to. A time period during which your grandappy lost to Mills. Thems the breaks.

You ramble on about Gilroy's scrapbook as if its some irrefutable source but you are aware that most boxers didnt fill their scrapbooks with clippings that were unflattering right? That could be part of your problem, you are using your grandpappys scrapbook as the basis of your argument when he would have been expected to fill the scrapbook with only those articles that showed him in the best light. For instance, the one article you posted of his fight with Mills was written by a guy who admitted in the first sentence he hadnt even seen the fight, he just listened to it on the radio. Thats not what I call the greatest source.

 

He ran gyms in Pembroke and Pembroke Dock in West Wales for a number of years. Produced a lot of Welsh amatuer Champions and British ABA Champion Chris Lawson. Lawson (http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer) later turned pro with Roy and I think Middleweight Steve Davies (http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer) turned over with him too.

 

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO THAT GUY WAS???? he was one of the most respected people in British Boxing...

you see what I mean I cite info, you dismiss these people

Ernie Roderick - explain then...

Ernie Roderick...

1945-05-29 Vince Hawkins Kensington, UK W PTS 15
vacant BBBofC British Middleweight Title

1945-04-19 Johnny Clements Walworth, UK W PTS 8
1945-03-19 Jim Wellard Nottingham, UK W KO 5
1945-03-15 Tommy Davies Kensington, UK W PTS 10
1945-02-08 George Odwell Marylebone, UK W PTS 8
1944-11-16 Johnny Clements Glasgow, UK W PTS 8
1944-10-25 Billy Mason Soho, UK W KO 5
1944-04-20 Tommy Davies Soho, UK W PTS 10
1943-10-23 Lefty Satan Flynn Kensington, UK L PTS 10
1943-07-10 Tommy Davies Nottingham, UK W PTS 10
1943-04-28 Pat O'Connor Soho, UK L PTS 10
1943-04-05 Paddy Roche Bristol, UK W TKO 5
1943-04-02 Stafford Barton Manchester, UK W TKO 4
1943-02-15 Jackie Potts Nottingham, UK W PTS 10
1942-08-23 Jim Herlihy Liverpool, UK W TKO 4

1942-05-25 Arthur (Ginger) Sadd Norwich, UK W PTS 12 final eliminator British MW title (WHY).


Yes Bert got injured in 1940, but what about the 8 years that followed with Bert No.1 in both MW & L-HW, No more eliminators for Bert & No Title fights!

Roderick had 16 fights between his Final Eliminator 1942, & the Middleweight Title - 5 MWs in 9 fights, the rest Welterweights

Bert in the same period (who had already beat Sadd in a Final eliminator for the title, and was promised the Title fight upon his return after his injury. ???).

Bert had 30 fights in this same 3 year period, two against Heavyweights, one against Mills (British & Empires World L-HW champion) and 27 against the othe Middleweights & Light-Heavyweights.

Bert had double the fights, was No.1 all through it and was 'technically' still official challenger, which they took (STOLE), from him in 1942 while still on a 6 year winning streak, gave the fight to Roderick who sat in hiatis for 3 years WHY???.

Bert was fighting the real Middles & L-HWs and even after the 1942 crime was given Sadd again and of course beat him.

Explain the Roderick fiasco and thats without even tackling why Gilroy & McAvoy weren't reunited first and of course the Gilroy vs. Mills years.

 

It was reported in 1942 that Jock McAvoy was set to defend his middleweight title once more against Arthur "Ginger" Sadd again.

I'm not sure why the fight never came off, but it's interesting that Sadd was offered or reported to be getting a shot again, and Gilroy wasn't.

mcvey, was this the time Gilroy was injured ?

 

Ok, I hadn't read this.

This half-answers my question. :good
Gilroy was injured in 1940.

I think McAvoy and Sadd were set to meet again in February 1942. But that didn't come off.
Then Sadd fights Roderick in an elminator ?

All the meantime, Gilroy has stayed unbeaten. :think