Boxers that were world class but never made world class money

Yes, I knew Roy when he ran Pembroke ABC and I was in school with Steve Davies and most of the amatuers he trained there. I seen quite a few of Chris Lawson's fights too.

But I last seen Roy in the early 1980's when he emigrated to Canada, which is where I guess you know him from. I was more curious about what he's done in Canada, what pro's he managed there, etc ..... I should have explained a bit more in my original post. :bbb

 

It doesnt matter WHO he was, he was commenting on a fight he hadnt seen and you take his word as gospel.

Then you write an entire argument predicated on the idea that Gilroy was still TECHNICALLY the #1 challenger. When was the last time prior to Roderick getting his title shot that Gilroy weighed under 160? You have to be specific here because you keep arguing back and forth between divisions as if the line between weight classes is arbitrary and blurred. It isnt.

 

Thistle claims Gilroy was put in with Cerdan like some sort of sacrificial goat to protect Vince Hawkins the British Champ. Fact is after Cerdan took Gilroy apart ,flooring him 5 times for long counts before koing him , Cerdan was provisionally matched with Vince Hawkins for the European title, but with the proviso that if he could obtain meaningful fights in the US he would take them, he did and then started his quest for the World crown.

 

According to the wikipedia page for welsh boxer Tommy Davies :

After a win against Frankie Jackson in February, Davies found himself being mentioned again as a contender for the British Middleweight title.[9] The current holder, Jock McAvoy had relinqueshed the belt, so the British Boxing Board of Control sanctioned two eliminator fights to decide who would challenge for the vacant title. The first was to be between Hawkins and Roderick, while the second would see Davies face Bert Gilroy.[9] While the fights were being arranged, Davies fought twice more. Another close loss to Roderick, and a win over George Howard in Soho. With the eliminators looming, news came through that Gilroy was unable to make the weight in time. The Board decided not to find another opponent for Davies, and decide that the eliminator between Hawkins and Roderick would decided the Championship.[9] Davies' title hopes were over.




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And that was 1945.
So it seems that it wasn't until then that Gilroy was officially no longer a middleweight.

 

Gilroy broke his pelvis in 1941 and did not fight for a year.

Figure it out.

Gilroy had beaten Sadd in an eliminator for the British middleweight ttile. this was on 6th March 1940.

Between 25th of July 1941 and 12th March 1942, Gilroy was inactive recovering from a broken pelvis. Sadd fought a final eliminator for the British Title with Ernie Roderick on 25th of May 1942.


See my revised post below

 

Gilroy broke his pelvis May 1940, 3 weeks before his title match with McAvoy,..

he was back in the ring in 1941.

I provide ALL the prewritten material and you make up your own timeline, and now your suddenly the expert who doesn't even veiw or accept the actual materialatsch.

 

You sure provide all the prewritten material but its all written by yourself. You are correct on the date ,I was wrong, Gilroy was out from May 1940 until the end of June 1941 which explains why he did not fight McAvoy.

BTW McAvoy is listed as relinquishing his Middle weight title on 22nd of May 1939 the day he succesfully defended against Sadd. Two months later he was fighting Len Harvey for the British LHVY title.

After May 1939 he never fought as a middleweight again.

 

I know... but he didn't relinquish it as you know. He was waiting to defend they wouldn't let him he complained and the Late GREAT Manchester sportswriter Henry Rose, (as well as others too, it was widely reported), did a peice about it, the one who was killed in the Munich Disaster.

Mac STATED "they won't let me defend my title and the bigger boys won't have any part of me."

Gilroy was back and waiting & waiting & waiting.

Nice to talk to you again:smooch.

 

That all fits in with the fact that McAvoy was reported to be scheduled to defend his middleweight title in May 1942 against .... Ginger Sadd again !

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...n8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JpkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4002,3320338

What's more, if those reports are correct, the final eliminator fight between Ernie Roderick and Ginger Sadd happened instead of McAvoy v Sadd.
I can only surmise that McAvoy pulled out for some reason.
Perhaps Gilroy was offered the match, but couldn't make weight in a week ?
Not that having to beat Sadd once more in another final elminator would necessarily be in his best interests.
Or maybe he wasn't offered the match.
Although he did fight Sadd again and beat him a few months later.

Now, the thing is, Roderick went into that May 1942 eliminator with Sadd as welterweight champion, and Sadd coming off a draw and a loss, the loss being to Ben Valentine who was one of the fighters Gilroy had beat.
In other words, Gilroy had better credentials than Roderick or Sadd.

 

I would like to know, once again, when the last time Gilroy fought at or below 160. Thats pretty central.

That being said, being deserving of a domestic title shot over a couple of guys who at that point in their careers werent very good, and had never been great (one of whom was fighting men considerably larger than himself) is a far cry from being a great, world class fighter who deserved a shot at the world title and would have won it had he been given the shot.

He failed to win over 25% of his fights, every fight against a worldclass opponent and several against modestly talented domestic fighters at best. You can pretend that this guy was robbed but when you fail to win that high of a percentage of your record it begins to sound like excuses.

I saw another argument you made with someone where you tried to say that a lot of these lesser talented fighters were really unsung greats, as if building them up would somehow justify Gilroy's losses to them. At the end of the day its really just trying to put lipstick on pig.

 

- probably in 1940 in his Final Eliminator against Sadd... these guys spent their whole careers at 'catch weight contests' in & around S-MW, only making weight for eliminators & title fights - ALL of them, in every weight division. fighting monthly they didn't have 4-5 months to make weight like today, where every fight is some sort of mickey mouse title.

- Gilroy spent a huge chunk of his career fighting UP too, L-HWs & HWs, but that only counts for Roderick and other fighters, Oh, I see. again you keep refusing Bert the credit others recieve, thats a horrible No, No and proves your really trying to marginalise his career facts all the time here.

- NO such thing as Domestic Level among the TOP men then, they were World Classed or not... completely different days.

- NEVER, most of these guys were Very Good and Excellent fighters, they wouldn't have been floating among the top contenders had they not have been. It took 3-5 years and approx 40 -50 fights for your British Titles and such (generally speaking), there were exceptions of course, the smaller percentage though.

I've stated guys like Len Johnson, Ginger Sadd, Jack Casey were Great fighters with a capital 'G' because THEY WERE!!! you know nothing about the times or are just continuing to ignore the facts. Welterweights like Roderick, Danahar, Gwen Williams too and a handful at ANYTIME from ANY Division, these were Great Times in Boxing... you obviously don't accept that either.

and of course once again your thinking TODAY for YESTERDAY, this is a Serious Error. Sorry guys do the research and read the actual Reports from the Top Scribes of the time!!!

 

So if the last time he weighed 160 or below was in 1940 then you cant really say that he deserved this or that at 160 years later, when he was clearly having problems getting down in weight.

My point about Rodericks weight wasnt to show how great he was but rather how poor the level of competition was at the 160 pound domestic level, given that an over the hill domestic welterweight was competetive with middleweights without even fully growing in to the division.

And, yes there is a huge difference between the domestic level and world class level, always was. If you cant accept this fact it explains why you are so star struck with a bunch of guys who werent that great.

You are right, I see a very clear distinction between what you consider great, and what was actually not great or even world class.

I see your argument all over the map. You will argue that Gilroy deserved a middleweight title shot against a guy who was no longer a middleweight years after winning an elimination bout or that he deserved a light heavyweight title shot years before he was actively seeking one and ended up losing to fighters in that division only to claim he was passed over. You ignore that there was a war on which effected every aspect of the sport. And frankly you only seem interested in quoting yourself as a primary source and your grandfathers scrapbook which by its very nature would be expected to be a biased source. You will complain that they didnt have a long time to make weight back then so they were used to fighting above optimal weight but then make excuses that he lost to Cerdan because he struggled to make a weight that he had been fighting at regularly, and which was still much higher than Cerdans.

Supposedly great fighters dont need the endless litany of excuses you have for Gilroy.